The fans on my Synology NAS were acting up, and so I bought some
replacement fans. I figured for grins I'd try and open it up and
lubricate the old fans, see if that would make a difference in the month
it'll take to get the new ones via slow boat from China.

Took off the case with 5 screws. The back panel came off with another 3.
Fans were held in place by 4 nylon screws per fan. Removed the fans,
did a deep de-dusting of the fans, heat sinks and inside the chassis,
then carefully removed the labels from the fans and put 2 drops
of oil into each fan's axle.

Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
anything or have screws left over!



... Abandon desire
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pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
pF> anything or have screws left over!

Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jan 22 2023 11:18 am

> pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
> pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
> pF> anything or have screws left over!
>
> Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the fans
> kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem, but once I
> do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did you consider
> replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the ones you have?

They really do not make them like they used to, so it's best to replace them.

you can get a monitoring program that will tell you the rpm of the fans. You can't entirely trust THOSE cheap sensors, though.

if you hear sounds they are probably running on borrowed time.
make sure your computer is setup to turn off if the cpu heat gets too high.
---
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-=> esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
pF> anything or have screws left over!

es> Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when
es> the fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual
es> problem, but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it.
es> I'm curious - did you consider replacing the fans at all or did
es> you just want to fix the ones you have?

Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and
so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)


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Ga> Well, you snipped it out, but quoting from his opening paragraph... "and
Ga> so I bought some replacement fans." ... ;-)

Haha, nice catch, guess I missed that bit ;)

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Bencollver to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Jan 23 2023 11:50 am

> Nice job! I remember being in a similar situation with a "homebrew" amd64
> server that i inherited. These had metal screws. Servicing the fans helped
> for a while but i eventually had to replace them. I've broken newer and
> smaller hardware that has more plastic parts, so i understand the feeling of
> relief when it still works after reassembly.

yeah but these fans are the cheapest money can buy. they also run nonstop.
if you experience any problems, you should just replace instead of trying to repair. if something is worn out, grease and cleaning won't get you anywhere.
I've been an electronics tech for over 17 years and I used to do RMAs every
once in a while. I serviced electronics controls for transmissions and other things. I've seen it all.


---
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-=> esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

es> Nice job! My gaming rig has started making some odd sounds when the
es> fans kick on. I haven't yet isolated which fan is the actual problem,
es> but once I do, I suspect I'll likely just replace it. I'm curious - did
es> you consider replacing the fans at all or did you just want to fix the
es> ones you have?

I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
a month. I figured I'd do a dry-run first and see how hard it would be
to take apart this time.

I'll keep the new ones around for when the fans finally fail.




... Question the heroic approach
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Bencollver on Mon Jan 23 2023 12:25 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Bencollver to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Jan 23 2023 11:50 am
>
> > Nice job! I remember being in a similar situation with a "homebrew" amd6
> > server that i inherited. These had metal screws. Servicing the fans hel
> > for a while but i eventually had to replace them. I've broken newer and
> > smaller hardware that has more plastic parts, so i understand the feeling
> > relief when it still works after reassembly.
>
> yeah but these fans are the cheapest money can buy. they also run nonstop.
> if you experience any problems, you should just replace instead of trying to
> I've been an electronics tech for over 17 years and I used to do RMAs every
> once in a while. I serviced electronics controls for transmissions and other
>
>
What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden
vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their drived in
a frame with rubber bushings.

The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk screenin
g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for one. Not
sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it
rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.

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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: poindexter FORTRAN to esc on Mon Jan 23 2023 06:15 am

>
> I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
> a month. I figured I'd do a dry-run first and see how hard it would be
> to take apart this time.
>
> I'll keep the new ones around for when the fans finally fail.

why didnt you just use amazon
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jan 24 2023 12:17 pm

>
> What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden
> vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their drived
> in a frame with rubber bushings.
>
> The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk
> screenin g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for
> one. Not
> sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it
> rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.

it was just to be stupid. they tried all kinds of weird shit.
look at all the weird levers and trays that have always been in dells.

i wouldn't trust a non metal screw, there's a risk they'd snap eventually if
someone messed with them enough.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Moondog on Tue Jan 24 2023 04:29 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jan 24 2023 12:17 pm
>
> >
> > What is the reason for plastic screws? Do they abosrb shock, or deaden
> > vibration? Back in the 90's some hard drive makerd would mount their dri
> > in a frame with rubber bushings.
> >
> > The worst vibration I ran into was from a game cd that had heavy silk
> > screenin g that was uneven. It worked fine in most cd drives, except for
> > one. Not
> > sure if that drive was out of spec, but when that cd was inserted, it
> > rumbled like a washing machine with an unbalanced wash load.
>
> it was just to be stupid. they tried all kinds of weird shit.
> look at all the weird levers and trays that have always been in dells.
>
> i wouldn't trust a non metal screw, there's a risk they'd snap eventually if
> someone messed with them enough.
>
When I worked for ZDS, they had some systems they produced under the internal
name of NDL - new design line. This was their attempt make a tool-free or
minimal tool system similar to IBM's PS2 cases with interlocvking trays, clips,
and friction fit pieces. Anyways, lack of screws and fasteners resulted in
cases that could flex, in effect boards and connectors could loosen up over
time. The field service bulletins would point out a probelm spotted in the fi
eld, then provide the enginering solution. Several of the "solutions" were
to replace plastic clips with screws and tie down loose pieces with zip ties.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 12:08 am

> When I worked for ZDS, they had some systems they produced under the
> internal name of NDL - new design line. This was their attempt make a
> tool-free or minimal tool system similar to IBM's PS2 cases with
> interlocvking trays, clips, and friction fit pieces. Anyways, lack of
> screws and fasteners resulted in cases that could flex, in effect boards and
> connectors could loosen up over time. The field service bulletins would
> point out a probelm spotted in the fi eld, then provide the enginering
> solution. Several of the "solutions" were
> to replace plastic clips with screws and tie down loose pieces with zip
> ties.

my experience with engineers is they are generally not brilliant and do not see things that are obvious to other people. maybe this because they are getting their education just for the job and they have no real interest. i've also worked with engineers who just like to tinker around and play but don't produce results.

at my old job we had to hire an old retired engineer to come up with a fix for complicated issue. it was a magnet. it worked better than every other application they tried.
---
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Hello MRO!

** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

>> I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
>> a month...

M> why didnt you just use amazon

It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
China. It too will be about a month in transit.



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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:23 am

> Hello MRO!
>
> ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:
>
> >> I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
> >> a month...
>
> M> why didnt you just use amazon
>
> It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
> literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
> not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
> product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
> China. It too will be about a month in transit.

right now what a lot of sellers do is use alibaba or whatever it's called. when someone orders from amazon, alibaba drop ships it. but in 2021 i had a mouse get in my garage and chew up the wires in my car. i had to replace blower motor, blower resistor and wiring, and the main fuse and a solenoid.

the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jan 25 2023 05:35 am

>
> my experience with engineers is they are generally not brilliant and do not
> s who just like to tinker around and play but don't produce results.
>
> at my old job we had to hire an old retired engineer to come up with a fix f

It is like the car crash testing before the emphasis on side and corner
impacts. Cars were designed to survive head on impacts, and tested insuch a w
ay that proved they were effective. Over time they realized cars rarely
crashed head on and the corners were the source of criticial damage and
injuries. I have to wonder about how the testing compared to real world
handling and vibration. One time we had a Gateway that would work in the
lab, then fail in the field. It was their attempt at a tool free metal
frame, and developed a twist in the sheet metal which would cause the video
card to shift position when moved. The only way to resolve the issue was
send it back to Gateway and get a machine that didn't have a twisted chassis.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:23 am

> Hello MRO!
>
> ** On Tuesday 24.01.23 - 16:27, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:
>
> >> I ordered new fans, but they're coming from China and won't be here for
> >> a month...
>
> M> why didnt you just use amazon
>
> It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
> literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
> not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
> product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
> China. It too will be about a month in transit.
>
>
>
Azon is a marketplace, and in order to carry A to Z you will run into items
made from Chinesium. For example I needed a USB to serial interface, and it
arived in a puffy airmail container from a Chinese vendor

---
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-=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-

-->SNIP

Og> It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
Og> literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
Og> not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
Og> product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
Og> China. It too will be about a month in transit.

Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
investment is worth it (IMO).

Cougar


... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to Ogg on Wed Jan 25 2023 06:00 pm

>
> Azon is a marketplace, and in order to carry A to Z you will run into items
> made from Chinesium. For example I needed a USB to serial interface, and it
> arived in a puffy airmail container from a Chinese vendor

everything comes from china. they are superior to everyone else.
it's also cheap for them to ship their products to the usa and other countries.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

> Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
> China?

lookup the chinese industrial revolution.
look at how the take over steel, concrete, pork bellies, etc.

they live, we sleep

>I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the

you're literally buying chinese shit and it's branded as american under some technicality. in some form it's coming from china. it could be down to the base elements to the various components to it being entirely created and assembled there except for 1 operation in the usa.

I've worked in manufacturing for 28 years and I have a lot of experience with a lot of different things. china does it better. my former company tried for almost 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no flaws for a decent price. they could not do it correctly 75% of the time. they sure sent nice gift baskets during christmas, though.

I've seen it all and i've worked for the big names. You would be surprised.
you are NOT buying american.
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Hello MRO!

M> the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from
M> china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days. -+-

You probably got lucky with a domestic shipment.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

Co> Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
Co> China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
Co> investment is worth it (IMO).

Apparently it's less expensive for American companies to have things made in China. And with China's population, they have a lot of people to develop manufacturing facilities and work for them, so they have a high workforce volume too.

Even if you buy something made in the US, it may contain parts that were made in China, especially if it's electronic.

Nightfox

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ogg to MRO on Wed Jan 25 2023 07:24 pm

> Hello MRO!
>
> M> the solonoid and main fuse (which i couldnt get ANYWHERE else) were from
> M> china and had 2 week wait time. i got it in 3 days. -+-
>
> You probably got lucky with a domestic shipment.

what probably happened is they had to order them in bulk from a supplier and put them into amazon's warehouse. someone else ordered them previously and triggered the order. Later, the remaining ones were in stock at amazon and I got one.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

> -=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
>
> -->SNIP
>
> Og> It seems that most electronics from A-n *does* come from China,
> Og> literally. I ordered a universival smartphone battery charger
> Og> not long ago, and paid extra for faster shipping, and the
> Og> product is still taking its sweet ol' time being shipped from
> Og> China. It too will be about a month in transit.
>
> Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
> China? I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
> investment is worth it (IMO).
>
> Cougar
>
>
> ... "Don't mince words, Ogg ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
>
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
>

As stated, cost is the big thing. My father worked for a die cast company,
and the exceutive staff was invited to China to visit a foundry being built.
The construction crew cleared an empty area, then built apartment buildings.
They were used by the construction company while the foundry was being built.
While hte foundry was being brought up to production, the construction of
tool and die shops were being built next door to it. When finished, the
construction crew moves out of the apartments, then the employees move in. Th
e complex is a self contained town in the middle of nowhere with industrial
rail access.

The apartments would be 2-3 person by US standards, but will host 8 Chinese
workers. The company quoted them on the cost of building a die cast machine
and all the cores, and the price was less than the cost of raw materials
anywhere else in the world. When a company can build a finished product for
less than raw materials, imagine adding on to it all the reuired governmental
fees and bring it all up to compliance. Add the cost of US employees and
benefits. Unless you produce a consumable product with a strong customer
base and constant demand, several companies find manufacturing overseas is
more lucrative.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Cougar428 on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:18 am

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am
>
> > Not bashing here, but why is it that everything we use is made in
> > China?
>
> lookup the chinese industrial revolution.
> look at how the take over steel, concrete, pork bellies, etc.
>
> they live, we sleep
>
> >I try to buy items made in the US. They cost more but the
>
> you're literally buying chinese shit and it's branded as american under some
> operation in the usa.
>
> I've worked in manufacturing for 28 years and I have a lot of experience wit
> price. they could not do it correctly 75% of the time. they sure sent nice
>
> I've seen it all and i've worked for the big names. You would be surprised.
> you are NOT buying american.

During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from
Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said, "packaged
in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam, or the
Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a product of
Denmark.

Maglite was an all-American manufacturer. they produced or sourced
everything from the US except the bulbs. Nobody made them in the states any
more. What had screwed them over is the cheap LED flashlight market snuck up
on them. For a fraction of the cost, I could get a rugged LED light made
from a lesser grade aluminum that would still take a beating. If not, I feel
better about replacing a $13 light than a $45 light

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> china does it better. my former company tried for almo
> st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no
la
> for a decent price.

It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.


* SLMR 2.1a * This just in: Research causes cancer in rats!

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am

Mo> During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from
Mo> Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said,
Mo> "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam,
Mo> or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a
Mo> product of Denmark.

I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world like that.

And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I found the engine was built in Mexico and the transmission was built in Japan. So those components were shipped to Germany where they assembled the car, then the car was transported here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to build the car that way.

Nightfox

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:32 pm

> > china does it better. my former company tried for almo
> > st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with no
> la
> > for a decent price.
>
> It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
> point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
> much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.
>
>

i'm not even sure that what we say about china is right anymore.
it could just be propaganda.

some companies here in the usa don't pay people enough. the other day i saw a job on indeed that required a BA that paid 17/hr.

I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

personally i have seen it better and cheaper from china. american companies can charge more just because. I've examined electronics from american companies and chinese and there's either no difference or chinese electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just better at everything.
everyone snoozed and losed.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 02:19 pm

> Mo> Vietnam, or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order
> Mo> to be a product of Denmark.
>
> I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world
> like that.

preservatives. maybe it IS a bit stale, but people don't notice.

chex mix is left out in the open for days at general mills but people still eat that junk. it's half stale. same as their other products.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 02:19 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 11:43 am
>
> Mo> During Christmas time the stores sell these big tin's of cookies from
> Mo> Scandinavian countries. I lokoed at the small print and one said,
> Mo> "packaged in Denmark." The cookies and tins were made in China, Vietnam
> Mo> or the Phillipines, then sent to Denmark to be packed in order to be a
> Mo> product of Denmark.
>
> I wonder how those cookies stay fresh, being shipped all around the world li
>
> And that reminds me of my car.. My car was assembled in Germany, but I foun
> here to the US where it was sold. And apparently it was still profitable to
>
> Nightfox
>
It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by air.
From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 14:19:10

Modern supply chains are notorious for being extremely complex and fractured. Every part of the product making is made in a completely different country. A famous example is the "Grown in Argentina, packaged in Thailand beans thing that appeared a year ago. Honestly this approach seems inefficent considering transporation costs (altrough you could argue that do it being shipped in bulk, invalidates the costs).

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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

MR> electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just better
MR> at everything. everyone snoozed and losed.

One thing is probably population. China has 1.412 billion people (vs. 331.9 million in the US) - China just has so many more people that can go into a particular field in the workforce and develop methods to manufacture things. And just the sheer number of people who could be available for manufacturing jobs is higher than many other countries.

Nightfox

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Re: How far I've come...
By: BoomieMovie to Nightfox on Fri Jan 27 2023 12:03 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Jan 26 2023 14:19:10
>
> Modern supply chains are notorious for being extremely complex and
> fractured. Every part of the product making is made in a completely
> different country. A famous example is the "Grown in Argentina, packaged in
> Thailand beans thing that appeared a year ago. Honestly this approach seems
> inefficent considering transporation costs (altrough you could argue that do
> it being shipped in bulk, invalidates the costs).

we had a washer that had to come from belgium. each time they would only send a small amount. this is a washer that could be made locally very easy.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Jan 27 2023 09:18 am

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm
>
> MR> electronics are done better. INDIA, i do not trust. china is just
> MR> better at everything. everyone snoozed and losed.
>
> One thing is probably population. China has 1.412 billion people (vs. 331.9
> million in the US) - China just has so many more people that can go into a
> particular field in the workforce and develop methods to manufacture things.
> And just the sheer number of people who could be available for manufacturing
> jobs is higher than many other countries.

no, china just decided they needed to do an overhaul. look it up.
america has a lot of manufacturing as well. so does japan. japan is small and has like 125million people.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Thu Jan 26 2023 04:32 pm
>
> > > china does it better. my former company tried for almo
> > > st 10 years to have an american made company make something simple with
> > la
> > > for a decent price.
> >
> > It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
> > point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
> > much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.
> >
> >
>
> i'm not even sure that what we say about china is right anymore.
> it could just be propaganda.
>
> some companies here in the usa don't pay people enough. the other day i saw
>
> I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.
>
> personally i have seen it better and cheaper from china. american companies
> o not trust. china is just better at everything.
> everyone snoozed and losed.

The technology has gone up in the last 30 years. I have a friend always goes
the cheap route, and I assume it's because he's never tried or owned
something with premium quality and workamnship. Most big game hunters and
competition shooter spend as much on the optics and mounts as they do on thei
r rifle. He, on the other hand, would buy the cheapest no name scope and
mount he could find. Back in the late 90's a cheap scope base could be told
apart from a good one from a distance. The screws would have coarse threads
that looked like they were made on one of Eli Whitney's first lathes during
the 1800's. The metal would be cheap as well. Soft, allowing for stripped
threads and snapped off screws or bolts.

The more modern stuff is held to better specs, and so are the fasteners. The
metalurgy is still off. AL380 or 6061 versus 7075 aluminum. While you won't
notice the difference on a range queen firearm, you'll appreciate the quality
better on a hunt or situation where things get banged around and re expected
to keep their zero.

There is still a difference between the real low end and high end gear, but
there is also several items that fall somewhere in between with regards to
price and quality. China can produce good stuff if held accountable for it.
I know of a gear dealer that has optics and mounts built to order in China,
and if it doesn't meet his QA standards, he'll stop payment and turn away
shipments. Vendors pay attention when they don't get paid.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm

> I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.

Pretty much this.

China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk which was
good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.

So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce
merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they
realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it
themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china,
and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you will
find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is
not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought
for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.

A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chinesse
construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up with
quality stuff."


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
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DW>It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
>point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
>much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.

Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business and
then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
slave labour.

They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were quite
a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making football
helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the
mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper than
doing it in the USA.

Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a
factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on
foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut
down.

Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using fewer
workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stand
for that.

It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
---
þ SLMR Rob þ Help!... I'm sinking in QWKsand!
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
nd
> then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
> that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
are also a problem.


* SLMR 2.1a * Hold on! Doesn't NT mean NinTendo ?

---
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

<Snip>

Ar> So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry
Ar> to produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at
Ar> some point they realized they could use that infrastructure and
Ar> experience to produce it themselves. If an European clock manufacturer
Ar> funds a clock factory in china, and sends an European foreman to
Ar> oversee the production of watches, you will find that factory produces
Ar> watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is not looking, using
Ar> European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought for them. It
Ar> happens in Morocco all the time too.

I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

Doesn't seem like good business, but apparently it was cheaper than
shipping goods to China for sale in the asian market.




... °±²Û Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? °±²Û

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am

>
> So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to
> produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point

They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do better than their competitors. I've seen a tour of chinese come into a company. they wanted to run a product we had but they couldn't. Nobody knew who those people's positions are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They even had spy cameras and they took everything they needed before they were told no photos.

China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.

Almost every other country is slow and stupid.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

-=> Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

Mo> It's probably packed in nitrogen and shipped priority shipping or by
Mo> air. From there it is packed in airtight tins and sealed.

I'm a coffee afficionado (was going to say "snob", but I like all sort
of coffee, even Bad Coffee) and have been paying attention lately to
roasting dates.

I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
of ground.

It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
year or two from now!

I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
roasted a couple of days ago.



... UNPRISON YOUR THINK RHINO
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business
> and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not
> plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.

A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take out monthly loans and pay it back to handle overhead and payroll. That's not being successful. I was in a company that was stuck in the same old cycles for almost 100 years. They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much money as they could THIS QUARTER. Then when shit went sideways they scrambled.

> Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> slave labour.

there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.

>
> Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using
> fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would
> never stand for that.

unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to work states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have to join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people are held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

> It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular people. china took over many industries and we were oblivious to it.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Sat Jan 28 2023 10:30 am

>
> I agree that the US (and maybe Western in general) attitude and practices
> are also a problem.

we couldn't get a company local to do what they consider small batches 6 times a year. we would pay for all the tooling. they all told us to fuck off. they would rather make no many than some money. once they were a vendor in our company they would be used for other departments as well. so we used china.

the american worth ethic is bullshit.

i went on craigslist and found a guy with a company for siding
"no job too big or too small"

I needed siding replaced here and there. The neighbor's chimney collapsed and hit the side of our house and damaged siding on the side of the house.

The job was too small! he also refused to open up a link from imgur
"I don't do that"
---
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sat Jan 28 2023 08:04 am

> I just bought a new espresso machine, so I'm buying fresh beans instead
> of ground.
>
> It's interesting seeing the variety of roasting dates on store-bought
> coffees. Some of the coffee beans packed in nitrogen have pull dates a
> year or two from now!
>
> I'm spoiled. I have a handful of local roasters and I can get beans
> roasted a couple of days ago.
>

it's all a work. you think you are being spoiled but you are paying more for something of equal or less quality.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

> I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
> helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
> the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
> basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
> competition. (if they needed it to begin with)

Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would
not.


* SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

---
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

> > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> > slave labour.

> there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china.

That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
as to how they treat non-Han peoples.


* SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to OGG on Thu Jan 26 2023 06:46 am

> -=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl
of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.
And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll pay 2 grand for an
Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and assembled in Flungdung by a
girl who's supporting herself and her aged parents on 3 bucks an hour.
How I wish we COULD "Buy American". (sighhhh..)

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am

> DW>It is difficult to make something of the same quality at the same price
> >point when the entity you are competing against pays their employees so
> >much less and can also use slave labor from the re-education camps.
>
> Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, China
> have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run at a
> loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of business a
> then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do not plan
> that far in advance. They want immediate profits.
>
> Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures say
> the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> slave labour.
>
> They do work efficiently.. I recall years back, probably when wages were qui
> a bit lower there, a big US manufacturer of sporting goods was making footba
> helmets in the USA. But, they were shipping the helmets to China to have the
> mouth guards attached, and then shipping them back since that was cheaper th
> doing it in the USA.
>
> Also, the Chinese gov't hates paying people to do nothing. They will keep a
> factory operating that is failing miserably, and then dump the products on
> foreign markets at ridiculously low prices, rather than let the company shut
> down.
>
> Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using few
> workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would never stan
> for that.
>
> It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.

The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so
their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Arelor on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:12 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Arelor to MRO on Sat Jan 28 2023 07:15 am
>
> >
> > So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to
> > produce merchandise up to European and American standards that at some po
>
> They learn from their mistakes;they copy their competitors and then they do
> are in their company, but i'm sure they were all high lvl engineers. They ev
>
> China is #1 in the steel industry and they have been for a while.
> They are not stupid and they are in it to win it.
>
> Almost every other country is slow and stupid.

My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security
was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on ho
w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the process.

There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in
WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press,
and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy a
nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he could've
sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he would say.
i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come in
the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so tolerant.
That was back in the days you could quit one manufacturing job then have
another job the next day.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Rob Mccart on Sat Jan 28 2023 01:17 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Jan 28 2023 12:48 am
>
> > Commenting on all the messages referring to China, not just this one, Chi
> > have a different attitude than we do about business. A company will run a
> > loss for 10 or 20 years until they put all the competition out of busines
> > and then they raise their prices to make a profit. Western countries do n
> > plan that far in advance. They want immediate profits.
>
> A lot of american manufacturing companies live hand to mouth. Some even take
> They didn't give a shit about a year from now. They wanted to make as much
>
> > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures sa
> > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exactly
> > slave labour.
>
> there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of china
>
> >
> > Ironically, they will also mechanize a plant to make more products using
> > fewer workers to increase the potential profits where Unions here would
> > never stand for that.
>
> unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to
> ue to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be stuck in a job
>
> > It's hard to compete with that sort of mentality.
>
> They adopted a winning mentality. And it was behind the backs of regular peo

The government has their hand in every sort of business. They're a silent
partner, and each level of government gets their take (above taxes.) I was
listening to NPR and they visited area where coal was being strip mined, and
several companies were building ski lodges and ski lifts because it was
better money than coal. The gov't would tke their money first, then the coal
miners couldn't afford to stay open.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

> That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> as to how they treat non-Han peoples.
>

if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal experience, most of those people are just bad news.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:43 am

> Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and a bowl

I've seen americans work 12hr days for chump change.

> of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government surveillance.

it seems like we all are being watched by the govt now and they are planning on doing more.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm

> My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
> through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and security
> was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices on
> ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the
> process.
>

that is so stupid that they allowed that.


> There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines in
> WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill press,
> and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the guy
> a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
> Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he
> could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he
> would say.
> i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
> management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then come
> in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so
> tolerant.

the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives.
There was no love for them.
---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to COUGAR428 on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:29 am

> > I worked for a plastics company that opened a factory in China and
> > helped them with setting up the factory for quality control and all
> > the processes which were already in effect at US plants. So
> > basically we gave them everything they needed to get started as
> > competition. (if they needed it to begin with)
>
> Something similar happened in Japan after WWII. Their factories got
> rebuilt with better state-of-the-art stuff while the US factories did not
> get upgraded. They also listened to Demming where American companies would
> not.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.
>
The US sent many of their efficiency experts over to Japan. The Japanese
were willing to listen and patient, unlike their US counterparts. Instead exp
ecting quick results, they made short term and long term goals. I think
that's more or less an Asian thing, since Korea i very similar in long trm
plans. I recall an episode of Computer Chronicles where there was a
representative from a company such as Samsung who was talking about the
future of LCD displays. Back in the 80's the screen array siz was limited,
so in order to make larger displays you would make it out of severasl smaller
displays. The sales guy was mentioning color displays were around the
corner, and large flat panel TV's weren't far behind. The other guest was fr
om a US company, and thought the trouble of coordinating an array of panels wa
s too forward thinking. Of course, the US guy was thinking about short term
issues rather than how things go faster if you invest in them.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 10:31 am

> > > Wages are not that low in China. Just checking the most recent figures
> > > the average worker there makes just over $54,000 (US) a year, not exact
> > > slave labour.
>
> > there's a lot of racism and propaganda that gives us the wrong view of chi
>
> That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> as to how they treat non-Han peoples.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Energize! said Picard....and this pink bunny appeared...
>
When the upper management from my father's company toured the foundry and the
plants around it, they noticed the apartments were shabby and over crowded.
Employees were packed into apartment complexes. 8 people were living in a
apartment suitable for 2 or 3 people.

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jan 29 2023 08:01 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jan 29 2023 01:27 pm
>
> > My father used to work for Clark Equipment, and he recalled a tour went
> > through of Japanese tourists. This was in the mid to late 60's and secur
> > was lax on what they took pictures of. There were proprietary practices
> > ho w they drilled and inlettted axles, and let them take pictures of the
> > process.
> >
>
> that is so stupid that they allowed that.
>
>
> > There was guy they called Tex, who lied about his age to join the Marines
> > WWII. The guy was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. He was running a drill pre
> > and kept staring at one of the engineers/ tourists. He walked up to the
> > a nd asked him if his father served in the war, and if he survived. The
> > Japanese guy said his father served, and survived. Tex then says he
> > could've sworn he killed the guys father. That sounded like something he
> > would say.
> > i heard stories of this guy getting pissed off at the engineers or
> > management, walked off the job and went to the bar to get drunk, then com
> > in the next day like nothing had happened. I'm amazed they were so
> > tolerant.
>
> the japanese were ruthless people who starved and tortured their captives.
> There was no love for them.

Yeah, they were arogant to allow people outside the company to film anything.
Anything the engineers saw they could easily reverse engineer.

Regarding troops, it was first assumed they born and raised in modern cities,
they shouldn't be that hard to fight. Problem was they had a head start on
jungle fightiing for several years, and as stated the life of a prisoner
meant nothing. Tex told me one time they got a batch of grenades where the
fuse was slower. They would allow the same cook off time before throwing,
then the enemy would grab them and throw them back. If they got lucky they
had enough time to toss them back again.

---
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> -=> Quoting Ogg to Mro <=-
TL> Because American workers won't work 12 hour days for chump change and
TL> a bowl of ramen noodles, or stand still for constant government
TL> surveillance. And American consumers are as much to blame....they'll
TL> pay 2 grand for an Apple iPhone thats designed in Cupertino, and
TL> assembled in Flungdung by a girl who's supporting herself and her aged
TL> parents on 3 bucks an hour. How I wish we COULD "Buy American".
TL> (sighhhh..)

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, can you tell me what you
really think?

(just kidding!)

I worked at a plastics plant where we made all the parts in the
factory. So I know there are products made in america. I just
wonder why business people don't see the promise of building chips
for cars in the US since we can't get them from China. (granted,
this is just an example, I don't know if those chips actually do
come from China).

If more US companies started building the items we are short of,
they could take advantage of opportunity.

JMO - Cougar


... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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MR>unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right to
>k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont have
>join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure people
>e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can be st
> in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.

My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store,
taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in
strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was
spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a
custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible.
The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up
was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I
earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking
company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others
in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircase
and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.

Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
always other offers out there.
---
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> > That is true, but they also do have some slave labor there. China is not
> > at all nice to their minority groups. Look up Ughyrs (sp?) for some idea
> > as to how they treat non-Han peoples.

> if china does not like a specific ethnic group, they pull no punches.

In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
their religion for the state.

> but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own personal
> perience, most of those people are just bad news.

Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?


* SLMR 2.1a * True Multitasking = 3 PCs and a chair with wheels!

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm

Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silicon foundries are currently made in Red China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The over-priced Apple stuff that used to be assembled in Cupertino is now made by Foxconn labor mills in Nicaragua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National Semi and Motorola is now made in S. Korea by NXP. Think about it...the guts of our Patriot missiles (1980's tech) that used to be made in Silicon Valley is now made 50 miles away from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung Fool decides to nuke Seoul, where are the chips for our
older military tech gonna come from?
IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

> similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad
> habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP
> Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much
> income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when
> someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I
> was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in
> 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about 35%
> more money than others
> in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote
> staircase and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else
> 'look bad'..
> I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.
>
> Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are

i dont know where unions are still required. we have osha, we have the department of labor. if things arent good for workers they just go someplace else. my mom was big on unions and my god mother was a union powerhouse. with their employer they needed to threaten to strike for every little thing. each time the contract was up. eventually that company pulled out.

i've been told not to sweep when i have nothing to do. i was told to drink at a bar during our breaks (no prob with that!), i was told that i was not allowed to work for a 2 week period during the holidays because i was not in the union yet. unions just hold people back now.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:27 pm

>
> In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
> their religion for the state.
>
> > but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own
> > personal perience, most of those people are just bad news.
>
> Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?
>

i think the ones that fled here to the usa are from china.

internet sez "The Hmong people are an indigenous group in East and Southeast Asia. In China, the Hmong people are classified as a sub-group of the Miao people. The modern Hmong presently reside mainly in Southwest China and countries in Southeast Asia such as Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, and Myanmar. "

they are basically a people with no country. the chinese hate them and use a derogitory word to describe them instead of calling them hmong.

In wisconsin theres's a lot on welfare and there's a lot of gangs where they are located.

I've worked with some of them and they are very hard workers. they have very large families, as well.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

> Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
> always other offers out there.

To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes
from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could
operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by
itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers
negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to survive.

I think most big companies nowadays are unable to identify which workers they
have are hard workers and which ones are plain burdersome. The reason is that
Western companies have bloated themselves with so much management people that
the Directives calling the shots only know what midle ranks tell them. That is
VERY BAD. 100% of the medium-to-big companies I know personally have very
severe issues with this. Maybe a radiodiagnostics service has three
radiologists in it, with one doing 70% of the work. This fact gets lost because
nobody is paying attention. Then budget cuts come and the hard-working one
threatens to leave if they don't give her adecuate equipment or whatever
(because there is severe Dr. scarcity and she can switch employments faster
than you can switch underwear). The midle-manager calculates "Ok, this one must
be doing 33% of the work, so we let her leave and replace her with a new guy."
She leaves and they get a new Dr. fresh out of college which takes 33% of the
load, leaving the department defficitary because the group now has no
capability to push his own way up.

I am not complaining. Karme is a bitch. The West will pay the price for
management overbloat. The only problem I have with that is I am trapped there.


--
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Ted Long to Cougar428 on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:25 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Cougar428 to TED LONG on Mon Jan 30 2023 03:42 pm
>
> Most of the automotive PIC's and PLA's that used to be made in US silico
> ua and Beijing, right next to the Intel CPU plants.
> Most of the RF and analog chips formerly made in the states by National
> from a nation led by one of the looniest dictators in the world. If Kim Jung
> older military tech gonna come from?
> IMHO, the Chips Act is 20 years too late.
>
> ---
> þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

I keep thinking this when I hear of all the EU politicians wanting to remove
cash and replace it with digital payment systems.

These guys would leave every economic activity in the hands of whoever
manufactured the smartphones, computers and programs used to run such systems,
who would completely be external to the EU.



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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am

> MR>unions in the usa are not what they used to be. There are a lot of right
> >k states and that just doesn't work with a union structure. people dont h
> >join the union but they have to be protected by it. in this structure pe
> >e held back due to the other union nuances, especially in pay. You can b
> > in a job for 5 years before you make 2 dollars more.
>
> My first long term job, part time while in school working at a grocery store
> taught me all I needed to know about unions. They have a union similar in
> strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad habits'.. I was
> spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP Chevelle SS) and a
> custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as much income as possible.
> The best way to get called first for extra hours when someone didn't show up
> was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I was good enough that I
> earned a merit raise, the first one in the company in 15 years, for breaking
> company production records.. This earned me about 35% more money than others
> in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote staircas
> and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else 'look bad'..
> I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions.
>
> Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
> always other offers out there.

I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair
service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop"
beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the
option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how mu
ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
on favoritism or perception. One time we had a lay off, and right before the
layoff I reach my anniversary, and got a review and promotion to a higher pay
grade. That supervisor was retiring, so he had no qualms about me moving up
a pay grade. A month later we got the government contract, and I was called
back in. The supervisor that took over was the one who played favorites, and
viewed me as a goof off, despite me making rate and working on a variety of
product. One day HR comes out and says they need extra grade 11 techs on the
line, and I refused. That equated to him that I was refusing work, which
was grounds for termination. He worked up the paperwork, and wanted me to
sign I refuse to accept a temporary department reassignment. I refused to
sign and got two union stewards involved who knew I was a grade 12. The boss
had the HR rep come out as well, and he told the boss that he wasted
everyone's time because I'm a 12, and not an 11. There were other 11's in
the department next to our that could tranfer to the line and didn't have to
bother a 12 that had less senior 12's if they needed to pull 12's. That
supervisor had several grievances written towards him by the material handlers
and he was reassigned into non-leadership role.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Rob Mccart on Mon Jan 30 2023 06:43 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Rob Mccart to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 12:53 am
>
> > similar in strength to those for Car Makers and such. I had some 'bad
> > habits'.. I was spending a Lot of money building up a muscle car (575 HP
> > Chevelle SS) and a custom Triumph Bonneville motorcycle so I needed as mu
> > income as possible. The best way to get called first for extra hours when
> > someone didn't show up was to be a very hard worker.. Long story short, I
> > was good enough that I earned a merit raise, the first one in the company
> > 15 years, for breaking company production records.. This earned me about
> > more money than others
> > in my situation, and led to me being cornered one night in a remote
> > staircase and threatened by the local union rep. for making everyone else
> > 'look bad'..
> > I told him to get stuffed but after that I had very little use for unions
> >
> > Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> > still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> > most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
>
> i dont know where unions are still required. we have osha, we have the depa
> ed to threaten to strike for every little thing. each time the contract was
>
> i've been told not to sweep when i have nothing to do. i was told to drink a
> t hold people back now.

You're viewing a union as a ceiling regarding what you cannot do, but it is
more or less a window. There is an upper limit, but there is also a lower
limit as to what they can do to you. If polies are well made, consistently
enforced, and predictable in outcome, then a union isn't necessary.
Unfortunately some shops don't play by those rules, and policies and
procedures are adhered to or ignored on a whim. The bargaining unit
agreement protects the employees from random stuff that cannnot be enforced.


---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 30 2023 06:48 pm

> Re: How far I've come...
> By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jan 30 2023 04:27 pm
>
> >
> > In this case, it is also because they are Muslim and have not given up
> > their religion for the state.
> >
> > > but i've had experience with the hmong in wisconsin, and from my own
> > > personal perience, most of those people are just bad news.
> >
> > Are the Hmong from China, or from SE Asia/Vietnam?
> >
>
> i think the ones that fled here to the usa are from china.
>
> internet sez "The Hmong people are an indigenous group in East and Southeas
> uch as Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, and Myanmar. "
>
> they are basically a people with no country. the chinese hate them and use
>
> In wisconsin theres's a lot on welfare and there's a lot of gangs where they
>
> I've worked with some of them and they are very hard workers. they have very

In the movie Grand Torino, the story takes place in a Wayne County (Detroit)
neighborhood that is mostly Hmong refugees.

---
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MO>The country also restricts travel from one province to another to regluate
>jobs and commerce. This ia a way to keep farmers' families in farming, so
>their kids won't leave in puruit of better manufacturing jobs.

Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many
wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a
communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
super poor.

---
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> Yes, there's no question it's a lousy place to live. That's why so many
> wealthy Chinese move to the USA and Canada. Way too much government
> control over everything there.. The only unusual thing there, being a
> communist country, is that they do seem to have a middle class. Usually
> there is a tiny percentage of very rich people and the rest are all
> super poor.

I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other
countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to
spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.


* SLMR 2.1a * SYSOP (sih' sawp) n. The guy laughing at your typing.

---
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DW>I think the ones who are loyal to the party can make a good living. That
>is how it used to work in the USSR. Are the ones that "move" to Canada
>allowed to stay there full-time? I was under the impression they could
>own property and spend "seasons" in Canada and the US (and Italy and other
>countries) but that they were still considered Chinese citizens and had to
>spend some time in their home country per Chinese rules.

No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here
as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of
people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the
weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which
probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted
to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be
restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
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RM> Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
> always other offers out there.

AR>To put it in terms a Communist would understand, the power Unions hold comes
>from maintaining the monopoly of workforce supply. If enough workers could
>operate out of the parameters the Union wants, the Union is not effective by
>itself (ie. the Union cannot set prices for the workforce if enough workers
>negotiate their own prices by the side). Hence Unions act like mobs to surviv

It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they
directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditions
pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

True communism is a whole other world. Canada is often referred to by
Americans as a Socialist Democracy. No question we are more Socialist
on average than the USA, but there is still a Capitalist backbone there
allowing those who are smarter and/or work harder to do better than the
average person. That's usually not an option in a true communist situation.
Generally speaking they do a job for a set rate and they want you to work
as hard as possible but, doing so, won't get you ahead.. so the only way
to 'win' is to do as little work as you can get away with so you are doing
less work than your neighbour for the same money. Production rates there
are generally pretty dismal compared to here.

But Russia is no fun to live in for a lot of reasons. My next door neighbour
lived there, working for a North American company, for several years and
he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

I asked him if he felt safe with his family there, and he said he had a
nice house with virtually no crime and they could hire housekeepers and
gardeners and such for 80 cents an hour. This was only about 8 years ago.
Later his 'feeling safe' comment was made more clear when he mentioned
that he lived in a part of the city where only workers and their families
from other countries lived, and there was a high brick wall around the
whole area that was patrolled by hired soldiers with automatic weapons
24 hours a day.

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RM> Admittedly, at one time, they were needed and in some places they maybe
> still are, but I always found that hard workers are difficult to find so
> most companies take pretty good care to keep them happy because there are
> always other offers out there.

MO>I worked at a salaried job, then the plant shut down and relocated the repair
>service department to the main plant. The main plant was a "closed shop"
>beyond the double doors heading out to the plant floor, so we were given the
>option to be integrated in the union or to find another job.

MO>At first we thought being unionized was repressive, but later on we saw how m
>ch certain supervisiors would try to make up conflicting policies depending
>on favoritism or perception...

Yes, dpending on the place Union stuff can be all over the place. They help in
companies that will walk all over their employees cutting corners wherever
possible, but the also can stifle productivity when working harder doesn't get
you anywhere because wages are set in stone based on time worked there and
it's often near impossible to fire someone for being lazy.

One place I worked at, when I was in the plant on my own, I actually set a
world record in production - multiple branches on 3 continents - and as
we grew I treated the people I was now supervising much better than the
other divisions did and production stayed well up there, although we had
to hide when people were between jobs 'slacking off' because when more
work came in a day than we could reasonably be expected to handle, we
would also all work our tails off and get it done. If you push people
all the time, their only intelligent recourse is to work slower.

That all came to a crashing halt a couple of years later when a Union got
into the company. I left and the others changed their attitude and a large
number of customers were lost.. and our biggest competitor heard that I'd
left and offered me 50% more money if I would go work for them.
Why I didn't take that job is a long story but it shows that when you
do exceptional work usually people know about it and are willing to pay
well for that person. That said, if the company is Huge, it's much harder
to stand out and often exceptional results are taken by the higher ups as
their doing, not crediting any individual(s).

Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their
competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs. B)

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> No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate here
> as easily as anyone else. It might take a while, as there are huge numbers of
> people that want to come to Canada (at least until they find out about the
> weather.. Ha!) but I'd assume many coming from China would be wealthy which
> probably helps the situation. But that's for a full time move. If they wanted
> to still return to their own country at times then they would probably be
> restricted to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
the idea that they could not immigrate permanently. I had heard that
Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap during the seasons they
are not there because they cannot stay. So I think that is where I got the
idea that none of them could stay. Thanks!


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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to ARELOR on Thu Feb 02 2023 12:51 am

> It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they
> directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
> working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
> better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditions
> pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

are you talking about canada or other countries? i'm in the usa and i dont see any non union places only surviving because they directly compete with unions.
places survive because of good business.

and regarding minimum wage, i only see that in non skilled jobs that many adults wouldn't even take.

> he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
> person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
> that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
> tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
> he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

oh i'm sure that's a cultural thing were he's acting humble. i'm sure he has the pick of whatever he wants.

> from other countries lived, and there was a high brick wall around the
> whole area that was patrolled by hired soldiers with automatic weapons
> 24 hours a day.

sounds like a safe place. i wish my neighborhood had that.
or chicago
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Thu Feb 02 2023 04:50 pm

> That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
> the idea that they could not immigrate permanently. I had heard that
> Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap during the seasons they
> are not there because they cannot stay. So I think that is where I got the
> idea that none of them could stay. Thanks!

they get property in other countries because it's an investment.
they tried that in wisconsin and it's not working out because they dont take good care of their purchases.

around here the cities will steal it away from you if you dont take care of it. even if it's not your fault [vandalism].
---
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-=> Quoting Rob Mccart to Moondog <=-

RM> Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
RM> There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
RM> that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their
RM> competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
you were the one in charge?

In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

JM2C...

Cougar


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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 04 2023 08:22 am

> Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
> about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
> you were the one in charge?
>
> In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
> sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
> never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.
>

The way to do it right is to walk ouf of such firms and try to start your own
business, which isn't easy, and therefore few people tries.

You are not charging a corporation from within unless you are somebody already,
and if you were, things would work to your liking already.

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RM>> No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
>> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
>> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
>> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DW>That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
>the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia
or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so
because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's
not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to
their Commie ways.. B)

DW>I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
>during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
>So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.

In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest
money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good
chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of
things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and,
although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free'
countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
of all their $Billions out of their home country..

---
þ SLMR Rob þ Deja boo-boo - The feeling you've screwed this up before.
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RM> > It's a complex issue. Non-union places mainly only survive because they
> > directly compete with Union places. If they pay less or have terrible
> > working conditions, their workers will go elsewhere. Granted it's much
> > better these days because of half decent minimum wages and safety conditio
> > pretty much guaranteed by basic government rules.

MR>are you talking about canada or other countries? i'm in the usa and i dont se
>ny non union places only surviving because they directly compete with unions.
>places survive because of good business.

Sorry, to clarify, although my messages come through a US Board, I do live
in Canada. Having looked at the information online I know there are still
a lot of US States with quite low minimum wages. Here they are working on
a Federal absolute minimum of $15 per hour - Provinces can choose to set
their minimum wage at More than that, but not less.

My point on competing with Union places.. My brother worked for years
for Sears Canada and multiple times the Unions tried to get in there
but when it came to the workers voting, they chose Not to have a Union
because Sears treated them quite well, possibly better than a Union place.

MR>and regarding minimum wage, i only see that in non skilled jobs that
>many adults wouldn't even take.

Quite true in many cases.. But a devcent minimum wage is the only way
to avoid Major poverty for those who have to, or can only do, those
types of jobs. My very first job I started at minimum wage, but I never
worked for minimum wage again. You hope to get skills to be worth more
than that later in that job, or in your next job. BUT, if there's a Union
in place, what you can make is usually guaranteed but also limited to
what your Union has negotiated with your employer. My non-union jobs, I
generally started there making less than most of the people already there
but, within a few years, I was making more than most of them. You usually
don't have that option in a Union place.

RM> > he said that it's fairly nice there.. if you have money. But the average
> > person there barely scrapes by. He mentioned the owner of a butcher shop
> > that he bought from told him once, when complimented on the meat, that he
> > tries to make it the best he can but couldn't comment much on it because
> > he couldn't afford to shop in his own store.

MR>oh i'm sure that's a cultural thing were he's acting humble. i'm sure he
>has the pick of whatever he wants.

Not quite.. You are right that he did get some products out of the shop but
he literally had to sneak them out. If they catch you taking them, you
are 'stealing from the people' and they tend to seriously frown on that..
all the way to a re-education camp somewhere in the frozen North..

From all, according to their ability, to all, according to their need..

(Unless you are already super rich and buddies with the Dictator.. Oops I
mean the 'President' of Russia..) B)

---
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> DW>That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I got
> >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.

> Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russia
> or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so
> because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's
> not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to
> their Commie ways.. B)

Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave
without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

> In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest
> money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good
> chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
> stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
> the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
> here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of
> things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and,
> although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free'
> countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
> they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
> of all their $Billions out of their home country..

Yes, that makes sense. If they've been allowed to make money over there,
they probably are not doing too badly in their country and would have
trouble maintaining their riches elsewhere.


* SLMR 2.1a * Think of it as evolution in action.

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Re: How far I've come...
By: Dumas Walker to ROB MCCART on Sat Feb 04 2023 09:42 am

> > that's not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert
> > us to their Commie ways.. B)
>
> Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave
> without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
> and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!
>

there's quite a few countries like that. maybe serbia is like that?
i dunno, i know a guy who co-owned a bar in town and he would have to travel back and forth.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to DUMAS WALKER on Sat Feb 04 2023 01:18 am

> RM>> No expert but I'd have to think that someone from China could immigrate
> >> here as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to still return to
> >> their own country at times then they would probably be restricted
> >> to no more than 6 months at a time in Canada.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> DW>That, and the fact that China is a communist country, might be where I go
> >the idea that they could not immigrate permanently.
>
> Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Russ
> or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing so
> because they don't like the system they are fleeing from and, even if that's
> not the case, they will likely have a big problem trying to convert us to
> their Commie ways.. B)
>
> DW>I had heard that Chinese buy condos in BC and then rent them cheap
> >during the seasons they are not there because they cannot stay.
> >So I think that is where I got the idea that none of them could stay.
>
> In a lot of cases it is wealthy people there looking for places to invest
> money they've managed to hide from their government where there's a good
> chance the places will go up in price. The limits on how long they can
> stay would likely be based on if they want to immigrate permanently and
> the hassle of the waiting period until they could get permission to move
> here if they do. I expect the super rich in China have a better time of
> things than the average people there (think of Russian Oligarchs) and,
> although they may want to take advantage of things in the more 'free'
> countries, they may not have any desire to move here permanently, plus
> they may have a major problem getting much more than a tiny percentage
> of all their $Billions out of their home country..
>

Due to military mobilisation, I bet there's travel restrictions from Russia.
They're alread telling those who took off for Europe and countries such as
Georgia they will be jail or executed if they return to Russia. If they get
thrown in prison, the Wagner group will swoop them up and send them to the
Ukraine for cannon fodder.

Regarding buying land or condos, large construciton firms are building modern
apartments like crazy in China, and there doesn't appear to be a demand for
the high end dwellings. In Tblisi, Georgia the Chinese built large
apartments surrounded by strip malls and economic districts, and the building
are vacant or mostly empty.

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RM> Often management is a victim of the "Peter Principal.
> There are a couple of definitions of that but the one I refer to is
> that a person will rise in a company to just beyond the level of their
> competence, suggesting Most managers are incompetent at their jobs.

CO>Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
>about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
>you were the one in charge?

CO>In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
>sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
>never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about losing
their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up, or try to
get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone smarter than
them available to do the job.

I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound confrontatonal
with you since I agree with your basic idea. A few times I've run into
this sort of thing and usually ended up deciding to forget it, just do the
job and let the boss sink or swim on how he runs things.

A Good boss is another story. One place I worked we got a sudden, panic
order come in from a very important customer and my boss came to me in
the plant and told me what the order was for and then paused and said,
'I have no idea how anyone could possibly do this in the time we have
to do it..'

I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that rather
than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it, basically
doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

After that he always just left things to me where a worse boss would have
just said, 'Well obviously you can do a lot more work in a day that we
thought', and would try to get you to half kill yourself all the time.

I later ended up running that department and, although other managers in
the company hated it, I'd let my people goof around when things were quiet
because then they would work at 120% when it was required. If you push
people to work hard all the time, they just set a slower constant pace.

In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If you
are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in most
of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked for so
that I would be readily available for them when they needed me again.
---
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RM>> Well, think of all the people who have moved to Canada and the USA from Rus
>> or Cuba. I'd imagine most of them that want to move premanently are doing s
>> because they don't like the system they are fleeing from

DW>Cuba is another country I didn't think you were able to permanently leave
>without fleeing. I know that used to be true. If they are able to leave
>and are moving to Canada (and for the reasons we suspect), that is great!

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that their government would happily permit
emigration.. otherwise they'd have no poor people left to exploit.. B)

---
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-=> Quoting Rob Mccart to Cougar428 <=-

CO>Not trying to be contentious, but instead of watching and talking
>about the situation - is there something you would do differenty if
>you were the one in charge?

CO>In a lot of places, what I would see is people sitting on the
>sidelines complaining about how the business was being managed, but
>never really stepping up to try and change things in a better way.

RM> Have you ever tried to tell your boss that he's doing something wrong?
RM> And the problem with incompetent bosses is they are paranoid about
RM> losing their jobs so they will either ignore you, tell you to shut up,
RM> or try to get rid of you in case higher-ups realize there is someone
RM> smarter than them available to do the job.

Actually I have. The last 3 places I worked had a management open
door policy. The first job I ended up leaving when the
suggestions I made had the effect you noted above. The second
actually listened to me, but I moved on and found a better job.

The last place was enthusiastic about doing things better, so they
would evaluate and try suggestions. Some worked, some didn't. I
made some suggestions that improved my ability to help workers (IT
Support), but I have retired after working for 50+ years.

RM> I say all that with a smile. I didn't intend for it to sound
RM> confrontatonal with you since I agree with your basic idea.

You don't sound confrontational, but thanks for letting me know.
Hey if we can't discuss things rationally, how are we ever going to
argue about things? B^)

RM> I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
RM> rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
RM> basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.
I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
like he trusted his people.

RM> In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32. If
RM> you are your own boss you only have to answer to the customers and, in
RM> most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked
RM> for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me
RM> again.

Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
be. Thanks for the reply!

Cougar

... úùþúùþúùþúùþ Eschew obfuscation! þùúþùúþùúþùú

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

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RM> I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
> rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
> basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.

CO>Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
>as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.

CO>I've gotten bitten by that dog a number of times. The boss sounds
>like he trusted his people.

He was good at letting you do what you were good at and not directly
supervising unless there was a problem. Six months after I started working
there he put me in charge of the quality testing lab, which required three
years of training to do, but I'd started doing the work when he was out
on sales calls and showing him the results when he got back and he realized
that I was quite able to do it, admitted I was even fussier on quality than
he was, so I got moved up a notch earlier than expected. Besides, he
preferred the 3 martini sales calls to running the plant so he was happy
to pass as much on to me as I could manage.. B)

RM> In the end I stopped working for other people by the time I was 32.

CO>Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
>be.

That was sort of accidental. I took a winter off between that job and
the offer of a similar job at a major competitor at 50% more money where
the job wasn't quite ready yet. They offered to take me on and 'find
something for me to do' until the coming job opened up but I decided I
was going to move anyways so, over a 2 month period, I sold two houses
that I owned in the city and moved into my cottage until the fall and
then took off for Florida for the winter. While I was there I got into
investing the money from the house sales and found I was making more
money than needed to pay the basic bills, so I decided to take some
more time off.. and sort of never went back, other than part time jobs
I set up, mostly to earn enough extra to keep me in fairly recent
computers and other non-essential things, having the investment income
paying the normal bills.

BTW.. That was 36 years ago.. Now I also have a full pension added on
so things are a Lot easier.. B)

---
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Cougar428 to ROB MCCART on Tue Feb 07 2023 11:20 pm

> RM> most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked
> RM> for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me
> RM> again.
>
> Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to
> be. Thanks for the reply!
>

yeah he's really lucky. it's hard to believe that customers paid him more
than what he asked for.
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Re: How far I've come...
By: Rob Mccart to COUGAR428 on Fri Feb 10 2023 12:52 am

> RM> I told him to leave it to me and I'd find a way, and he did that
> > rather than trying to micro-manage how I did the work. I did manage it,
> > basically doing about 8 or 10 hours of production in 5 hours.
>
> CO>Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
> >as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.
>
> Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
> I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
> if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
> company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
> into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.
>

what type of job was this? was this manufacturing where you were not showing up for the entire day and they accepted that?
---
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(Re: Doing 8 to 10 hours of production work in 5 hours)

CO>Sounds like you came through with the goods! That's great as long
>as they don't expect you to do more with less as a rule of thumb.

RM>Yes, I think he was so amazed he decided not to question how I did it.
>I definitely wouldn't want to do that too often, nor could a lot of people
>if I'm being honest. The speed up involved things like ignoring the
>company policy of not lifting more than 70 lbs when dumping materials
>into a large mixer we used. That day I was working with up to 175 lbs.


MR>what type of job was this? was this manufacturing where you were not
>showing up for the entire day and they accepted that?

Not sure what you are referring to about not showing up for the entire day.
It was a regular 40 hour a week job for us.

It was a plant making colouring for plastics, inks and special paints and
we got a super rush order for over a ton of product which had to go out
before the end of that day (5 hours later). Normally a product run that
big would take well over a full day to make up and lab test for quality.

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RM> most of the jobs I did, my customers actually paid me more than I asked
> for so that I would be readily available for them when they needed me

CO> Now there's the ticket! I wish I was as resourceful as you seem to be.

MR>yeah he's really lucky. it's hard to believe that customers paid him more
>than what he asked for.

In general I was charging less than the going rate for things because I was
working out of my house with lower overhead. Some of the jobs I was doing
it was hard to find people to do them at all - things under the heading
of Property Management doing maintanance and such on cottages for people
who were not there enough hours to look after the places themselves if
they wanted to have any time to get any enjoyment out of the place.

I was also doing computer work and, as an example, one time I got a call
from the Town Clerk (think Mayor's Chief of Staff) who had a computer
they couldn't spare out with a major computer place who tried for over
2 weeks to get it working right and I think were finally starting to
suggest they just scrap the nearly new computer and buy a replacement.
She called me and asked if I'd look at it, explaining the situation,
and I told her if they couldn't fix it I doubted that I could, but she
said she'd pay me to try.. I got it working in about 3 hours.
It was a totally hidden hardware issue where everything worked right
when tested on it's own, but didn't work right together, in only one
out of four identical computers bought at the same time.

Later when I stopped in one day she introduced me to a sales rep from
Wang computers as their Computer Guru.. B)

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pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
pF> anything or have screws left over!

I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had the
same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box. Then it
happened to my cloud server. Then...

Feels good doesn't it.

Daniel Traechin

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-=> calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
pF> anything or have screws left over!

ca> I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had
ca> the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box.
ca> Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...

ca> Feels good doesn't it.

It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.




... What context would look right?
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: poindexter FORTRAN to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 2023 07:56 am

> -=> calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
>
> pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that would
> pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
> pF> anything or have screws left over!
>
> ca> I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago had
> ca> the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall box.
> ca> Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...
>
> ca> Feels good doesn't it.
>
> It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
> bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.
>

more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
and slim it all down.
---
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm

> more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
> and slim it all down.

You'd be surprised sometimes.

If your computers work under medium to heavy load, there is a point past which
it makes a lot of sense to ditch old hardware and replace it with new one.
However, under lightweight load, it would take ages to save enough power to
justify replacing an old computer worth 40 bucks for one worth 200.

Something similar happens with incandescent bulbs. If you don't use the
lighbulb that much, it does not make sense to replace it with a low-cunsuption
lightsource. You won't recoup the cost of switching with the power savings.

Specially if you are $me and have solar electricity for 96% of the year XD

--
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Feb 27 2023 09:19 am

> Re: Re: How far I've come...
> By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm
>
> > more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
> > and slim it all down.
>
> You'd be surprised sometimes.
>
> If your computers work under medium to heavy load, there is a point past
> which it makes a lot of sense to ditch old hardware and replace it with new
> one. However, under lightweight load, it would take ages to save enough
> power to justify replacing an old computer worth 40 bucks for one worth 200.
>

no i'm not surprised. i used to have a house full of computers running and now i have one in my bedroom and one running downstairs as a media center.

i have a killowat and i've seen the difference.

anyways, it's just better to get rid of that old shit. some people need to stop being fucking hoarders.
---
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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 26 2023 06:46 pm

> Re: Re: How far I've come...
> By: poindexter FORTRAN to calcmandan on Sun Feb 26 2023 07:56 am
>
> > -=> calcmandan wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
> >
> > pF> Everything went back together, the fans are quieter, the fan that wo
> > pF> stop working momentarily is working normally, and I didn't break
> > pF> anything or have screws left over!
> >
> > ca> I know the feeling, my old workhorse laptop from twelve years ago ha
> > ca> the same problem with the CPU fan. Then it happened to my firewall b
> > ca> Then it happened to my cloud server. Then...
> >
> > ca> Feels good doesn't it.
> >
> > It feels good not tossing out old hardware; old hardware, with a little
> > bit of maintenance here and there seems to last longer.
> >
>
> more energy consumption. it's better to get rid of the old shit
> and slim it all down.

I've invested in a few single board pc's before the Pi supply dried up, and
swapped out some old Pentium 4's for Arm cpu's.

---
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On 2023-01-28, Arelor <PALANT!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> Re: How far I've come...
> By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm
>
> > I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.
>
> Pretty much this.
>
> China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk which was
> good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.
>
> So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to produce
> merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they
> realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it
> themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in china,
> and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you will
> find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman is
> not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bought
> for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.
>
> A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chinesse
> construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up with
> quality stuff."
>
>
> --
> gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
>
> ---
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Japan was like that in the 60-70's. Cheap copies everywhere, and in the 80's
they managed to surpass the West in a lot of places.

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Re: Re: How far I've come...
By: anthk to All on Thu Jul 06 2023 08:59 am

> On 2023-01-28, Arelor <PALANT!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
> >
> > Re: How far I've come...
> > By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 26 2023 08:47 pm
> >
> > > I don't think we're at the point where china makes cheap junk.
> >
> > Pretty much this.
> >
> > China used to be the laughting stock of the world, selling cheap junk whic
> > good for barely anything. They aren't anymore.
> >
> > So many foreigner countries helped the Chinesse build their industry to pr
> > merchandise up to European and American standards that at some point they
> > realized they could use that infrastructure and experience to produce it
> > themselves. If an European clock manufacturer funds a clock factory in chi
> > and sends an European foreman to oversee the production of watches, you wi
> > find that factory produces watches under a Chinesse brand when the foreman
> > not looking, using European standards and the toolchains the Europeans bou
> > for them. It happens in Morocco all the time too.
> >
> > A contruction engineer I know used to warn us in the early 2010s. "Chiness
> > construction steel is no longer total junk. They are starting to show up w
> > quality stuff."
> >
> >
> > --
> > gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
> >
> > ---
> > þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
> Japan was like that in the 60-70's. Cheap copies everywhere, and in the 80's
> they managed to surpass the West in a lot of places.
>
The Japanese mindset towards product development ran off a different schedule
than Western mindset regarding time tables. A product may have been rejected
in the US because it would 5 years to go from concept to finished project. A
Japanese company would be thinking about longer term profitability and think
5 years not being that long to wait.

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