At a White House press conference today, the Biden administration officially
announced the nomination of Steve Dettelbach for ATF Director and new ATF
regulations aimed at the home manufacturing of firearms.

Dettelbach, a former classmate of Barack Obama who has been enthusiastically
endorsed by anti-2A groups like Everytown and Giffords, is the Biden
Administration's attempt to appoint someone with the same radical values as
David Chipman, but with a less embarrassing public paper trail.

The White House also announced the final rule on so-called "ghost guns"
that will classify certain parts or combinations of parts as full-on firearms.

These tyrants demonize advances in firearm technology and invent terms like
"ghost guns" to scare the uninformed into supporting their agenda.

But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something deeply rooted
in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.


... "Remember what the doormouse said: Feed Your Head."
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
­ Synchronet ­ -=The Wastelands BBS=- -=Since 1990=-

-=> Thumper wrote to All <=-

Th> These tyrants demonize advances in firearm technology and invent terms
Th> like "ghost guns" to scare the uninformed into supporting their agenda.

I think they're more scared about the fact that mass shootings are becoming
normalized in people's minds, because they happen so god damned often.

Th> But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something
Th> deeply rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.

Are there precedents regarding home firearm manufacturing and modification
in case law? Not being a smart ass, actually curious.



... Two protons expelled at each coupling site creates the mode of force
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: Re:
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Thumper on Tue Apr 12 2022 07:02 am

> -=> Thumper wrote to All <=-
>
> Th> These tyrants demonize advances in firearm technology and invent terms
> Th> like "ghost guns" to scare the uninformed into supporting their agenda.
>
> I think they're more scared about the fact that mass shootings are becoming
> normalized in people's minds, because they happen so god damned often.
>
> Th> But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something
> Th> deeply rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.
>
> Are there precedents regarding home firearm manufacturing and modification
> in case law? Not being a smart ass, actually curious.
>
>
>
> ... Two protons expelled at each coupling site creates the mode of force

As a matter of fact, politicians don't care if there is crime or shootings or
four horsemen of the Apocalypse ravaging the country, since bad stuff happens
to the poor but not to them. Most of the time they do something for the good
of the people, there is a clear hidden reason. If it actually helps people it
is accidental.

The new Spanish tax on sweet drinks comes to mind. The argument for imposing it
was that it was aimed at reducing comsumption of drinks with excess sugar. In
reality, the tax was applied to a lot of drinks with no sugar. They used fear
from sugar as an excuse for pushing a law that gave them more power of the
entirety of the drink industry and affected a lot of manufacturers who had
nothing to do with the alleged excuse.

Surely, you see how this works.

If they were scared of guns manufactured in underground workshops being used
for active shootings, it would be interesting to see how many unregistered guns
have been manufactured and used for one of those in an underground workshop. I
bet not many. Spain is an example of a country with a tight supply of
commercial weapon parts, which makes it the sort of place in which baddies
would turn to underground manufacturing, and while there are underground
blacksmiths, baddies main sources of guns here are civil war stashes, corrupt
law enforcers an Eastern Europe Smugglers.

Afaik homemade guns are explicitly legal in a number of US States.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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Re: Re:
By: Arelor to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 13 2022 07:06 am

> Re: Re:
> By: poindexter FORTRAN to Thumper on Tue Apr 12 2022 07:02 am
>
> > -=> Thumper wrote to All <=-
> >
> > Th> These tyrants demonize advances in firearm technology and invent ter
> > Th> like "ghost guns" to scare the uninformed into supporting their agen
> >
> > I think they're more scared about the fact that mass shootings are becomi
> > normalized in people's minds, because they happen so god damned often.
> >
> > Th> But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something
> > Th> deeply rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitutio
> >
> > Are there precedents regarding home firearm manufacturing and modificatio
> > in case law? Not being a smart ass, actually curious.
> >
> >
> >
> > ... Two protons expelled at each coupling site creates the mode of force
>
> As a matter of fact, politicians don't care if there is crime or shootings o
> four horsemen of the Apocalypse ravaging the country, since bad stuff happen
> to the poor but not to them. Most of the time they do something for the go
> of the people, there is a clear hidden reason. If it actually helps people i
> is accidental.
>
> The new Spanish tax on sweet drinks comes to mind. The argument for imposing
> was that it was aimed at reducing comsumption of drinks with excess sugar. I
> reality, the tax was applied to a lot of drinks with no sugar. They used fea
> from sugar as an excuse for pushing a law that gave them more power of the
> entirety of the drink industry and affected a lot of manufacturers who had
> nothing to do with the alleged excuse.
>
> Surely, you see how this works.
>
> If they were scared of guns manufactured in underground workshops being used
> for active shootings, it would be interesting to see how many unregistered g
> have been manufactured and used for one of those in an underground workshop.
> bet not many. Spain is an example of a country with a tight supply of
> commercial weapon parts, which makes it the sort of place in which baddies
> would turn to underground manufacturing, and while there are underground
> blacksmiths, baddies main sources of guns here are civil war stashes, corrup
> law enforcers an Eastern Europe Smugglers.
>
> Afaik homemade guns are explicitly legal in a number of US States.
>
>
> --
> gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
>

Home made firearms are legal as long as you're making them for personal use.
manufacturing for profit is illegal.

Regarding criminal activity with "ghost guns," they're not actual acts of viol
ence. They are arrests of individuals who are prohibited from legally owning
a firearm getting caught with one. Home made firearms are nothing new. The
difference is people can buy CNC mini mills that fit on a table top that do
all the precision work.

Years ago I saw a builder's blog where the gunsmith bought a shovel at the
local big box hardware store, and used a bending brake, a saw, a drill and a
hammer cut and bend the shovel scoop into an AK receiver. Excess metal used t
o create smaller pieces of the receiver that required welding in place. The
buttstock was made from the handle. the rest of the gun was surplus parts
that require no special paperwork to own. Most military arms made aroiund
and after WWII were made of stamped pieces spot welded together. the complex
parts were firing components, the bolt, and the rifled barrel.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re:
By: Thumper to All on Mon Apr 11 2022 01:10 pm

> But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something deeply
> rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.

Completely agree, Thumper. Even though I have not yet been trained in firearms, I am a student of history (even got my degree in it over two decades ago!), and appreciate how not only did the widespread availability of arms ensure the British were defeated during the American Revolutionary War, but also dissuaded both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union from envisaging an invasion of the United States.

It is a strategy that is being increasingly deployed in the Ukraine against Russian aggression and will be part and parcel of what keeps that country and its people free and independent.
-=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-

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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Kaelon to Thumper on Fri Apr 29 2022 11:00 am

> Re:
> By: Thumper to All on Mon Apr 11 2022 01:10 pm
>
> > But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something deeply
> > rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.
>
> Completely agree, Thumper. Even though I have not yet been trained in firear
> ed during the American Revolutionary War, but also dissuaded both Nazi Germa
>
> It is a strategy that is being increasingly deployed in the Ukraine against
> -=- Kaelon -=- kaelon@kaelon.com -=-
>

April 19th marked the date of the beginning of the US Revolution, the battle
of Lexington and Concord. The objective of the British landing force was
to sieze the powder magazine in Conchord. That was a decisive moment since
the Redcoats couldn't bring the volume of powder that matched what was at the
armory. One of the volunteer's only job that night was stay at the magazine
and burn it down if it looked like the Redcoats could capture it.

Manufacturing and private ownership in the States was also a must have in the
early days due to the king not having the money or sympathy to protect the
new colonists from natives and aggressors from other countries. Telling the
subjects to arm themselves was a critical move towards not needing a king and
his army.

---
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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 02:04 pm

> April 19th marked the date of the beginning of the US Revolution, the battle
> of Lexington and Concord. The objective of the British landing force was
> to sieze the powder magazine in Conchord. That was a decisive moment since
> the Redcoats couldn't bring the volume of powder that matched what was at
> the armory. One of the volunteer's only job that night was stay at the
> magazine and burn it down if it looked like the Redcoats could capture it.

This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing this! Although I live on the South Shore of Massachusetts now, I grew up in Florida and other than the names of the battles and the underlying political and economic motivations of the founders, I never have appreciated the start of the American Revolutionary War until I moved up here two decades ago. I'm just minutes away from Lexington and Concord, and should really partake much more of this rich history.

For the Ukrainians, arming its entire population has been a critical moment and inspiring for Americans to recall our own foundations in freedom. I hope that, in time, people will look to the preservation and inevitable victory of Ukraine as a re-founding of global freedom everywhere.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Sun May 01 2022 03:14 pm

> Re: re: the American Traditio
> By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sat Apr 30 2022 02:04 pm
>
> > April 19th marked the date of the beginning of the US Revolution, the bat
> > of Lexington and Concord. The objective of the British landing force was
> > to sieze the powder magazine in Conchord. That was a decisive moment sin
> > the Redcoats couldn't bring the volume of powder that matched what was at
> > the armory. One of the volunteer's only job that night was stay at the
> > magazine and burn it down if it looked like the Redcoats could capture it
>
> This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing this! Although I live on the South S
> iated the start of the American Revolutionary War until I moved up here two
>
> For the Ukrainians, arming its entire population has been a critical moment
> ng of global freedom everywhere.
> _____
> -=: Kaelon :=-
>
Check out Project Appleseed when you have a chance. It's a two day
marksmanship course tied in with history lessons specifically from the battle
of Lexington and Conchord. If you never shot a rifle, they bring spares and y
ou are the best candidate for training, and if you have shot, it's still good
training. You'll learn to shoot with a rifle sling while standing, kneeling,
and prone at 25 yards, and later stages include shooting at smaller scaled
targets to simulate shooting at longer distances. One cool target is a
Morgan's Shingle, which is the size of a postage stamp to recreate the size
of a head at 250 yards when hung at 25 yards. Captain Daniel Morgan was
given command of two rifle companies supporting General Washington, and a
pre-requisite to join was one chance to hit a wooden roofing shingle the size
of an officer's head.

---
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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Mon May 02 2022 12:11 am

> Check out Project Appleseed when you have a chance. It's a two day
> marksmanship course tied in with history lessons specifically from the
> battle of Lexington and Conchord. If you never shot a rifle, they bring
> spares and y ou are the best candidate for training, and if you have shot,
> it's still good training. You'll learn to shoot with a rifle sling while
> standing, kneeling, and prone at 25 yards, and later stages include shooting
> at smaller scaled targets to simulate shooting at longer distances.

Thanks so much for this recommendation! I checked them out at https://appleseedinfo.org
and was delighted to find out that they have a monthly course here in Massachusetts at the Harvard Sports Yard. Thrilling! I'm surprised that, as a Freemason, I've never heard about this before from other brothers, but I will be sure to share this at Lodge the next time I go.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Mon May 02 2022 07:39 am

> Re: re: the American Traditio
> By: Moondog to Kaelon on Mon May 02 2022 12:11 am
>
> > Check out Project Appleseed when you have a chance. It's a two day
> > marksmanship course tied in with history lessons specifically from the
> > battle of Lexington and Conchord. If you never shot a rifle, they bring
> > spares and y ou are the best candidate for training, and if you have shot
> > it's still good training. You'll learn to shoot with a rifle sling while
> > standing, kneeling, and prone at 25 yards, and later stages include shoot
> > at smaller scaled targets to simulate shooting at longer distances.
>
> Thanks so much for this recommendation! I checked them out at https://apples

> ver heard about this before from other brothers, but I will be sure to share
> _____
> -=: Kaelon :=-
>
A couple of years ago there was some falling out in the Appleseed circles,
and a second group called Revere's Riders grew out of it. I'm not familiar
with the drama that started it or what the major differences are, but the
Appleseed guys I know endorse trying either program and are good friends with
the guys who split off.

In the searching I've briefly done there were arguments about growth or expand
ing the training provided by Appleseed, and a bunch of trainers and
facilitators walked out and made the program how they wanted it.

---
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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Mon May 02 2022 09:57 pm

> A couple of years ago there was some falling out in the Appleseed circles,
> and a second group called Revere's Riders grew out of it. I'm not familiar
> with the drama that started it or what the major differences are, but the
> Appleseed guys I know endorse trying either program and are good friends
> with the guys who split off.
>
> In the searching I've briefly done there were arguments about growth or
> expand ing the training provided by Appleseed, and a bunch of trainers and
> facilitators walked out and made the program how they wanted it.

In my view, as long as there is a program that teaches both civic responsibility and promotes responsible gun ownership through training, safety, and marksmanship, that's the sort of program that I want to get involved in and introduce my son into. There's a lot to be said for appreciating the awesome power and tremendous responsibility inherent in owning and using a weapon, but that requires training, education, and proper orientation to the right way of doing things. And this is deeply entrenched in an American History that just isn't taught anymore, and hasn't since before I was born.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Tue May 03 2022 08:12 am

> Re: re: the American Traditio
> By: Moondog to Kaelon on Mon May 02 2022 09:57 pm
>
> > A couple of years ago there was some falling out in the Appleseed circles
> > and a second group called Revere's Riders grew out of it. I'm not famili
> > with the drama that started it or what the major differences are, but the
> > Appleseed guys I know endorse trying either program and are good friends
> > with the guys who split off.
> >
> > In the searching I've briefly done there were arguments about growth or
> > expand ing the training provided by Appleseed, and a bunch of trainers a
> > facilitators walked out and made the program how they wanted it.
>
> In my view, as long as there is a program that teaches both civic responsibi
> e's a lot to be said for appreciating the awesome power and tremendous respo
> an American History that just isn't taught anymore, and hasn't since before
> _____
> -=: Kaelon :=-
>
Everyone is familiar with the poem about the ride of Paul Revere, however the
events in real life didn't work out as told. He wasn't the only messenger -
they had redundant riders. Considering the people with subjects of the king,
yelling the British are coming would make little sense. Revere was caught
and interrogated, and told them everything because events were already in
motion. The officer took his horse and left him to be guarded. His escape
was less than spectacular. The guards wandered off and didn't take him with
them.

---
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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Wed May 04 2022 12:40 am

> Everyone is familiar with the poem about the ride of Paul Revere, however
> the events in real life didn't work out as told. He wasn't the only
> messenger - they had redundant riders. Considering the people with subjects
> of the king, yelling the British are coming would make little sense. Revere
> was caught
> and interrogated, and told them everything because events were already in
> motion. The officer took his horse and left him to be guarded. His escape
> was less than spectacular. The guards wandered off and didn't take him with
> them.

While this particular tangent I am about to convey probably belongs best in DOVE-Net Entertainment, I can't help myself because it's relevant. In the TV series, "Turn," there is such an interesting contrast between the sanitized version of the American Revolutionary events that school children are taught, and the actual ruthlessness and intelligence operation undertaken by Continental forces under Washington.

I feel that the public should be educated broadly on both the fundamentals of American History - what Benjamin Franklin described of 'Americans' as being a "rougher, simpler, more violent, more enterprising, less refined" people. He concluded that "we were a new nationality, and thus required a new nation." The freedom guaranteed only by arms is at the heart of what made our pioneering colonial forefathers truly independent in nationality and sovereignty.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: re: the American Traditio
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Wed May 04 2022 11:01 am

> Re: re: the American Traditio
> By: Moondog to Kaelon on Wed May 04 2022 12:40 am
>
> > Everyone is familiar with the poem about the ride of Paul Revere, however
> > the events in real life didn't work out as told. He wasn't the only
> > messenger - they had redundant riders. Considering the people with subje
> > of the king, yelling the British are coming would make little sense. Rev
> > was caught
> > and interrogated, and told them everything because events were already in
> > motion. The officer took his horse and left him to be guarded. His esca
> > was less than spectacular. The guards wandered off and didn't take him w
> > them.
>
> While this particular tangent I am about to convey probably belongs best in
> Revolutionary events that school children are taught, and the actual ruthles
>
> I feel that the public should be educated broadly on both the fundamentals o
> re a new nationality, and thus required a new nation." The freedom guarante
> _____
> -=: Kaelon :=-
>
The rattlesnake on the Gadsen flag came from Franklin's writings. It is one
of the few animals that warns you before you act too foolishly. It will not
attack unless provoked, and even then it's rattle is fair warning to whoever
doesn't back down. Step on the snake and you will get hurt.

---
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Mo> The rattlesnake on the Gadsen flag came from Franklin's writings. It is o
Mo> of the few animals that warns you before you act too foolishly. It will n
Mo> attack unless provoked, and even then it's rattle is fair warning to whoev
Mo> doesn't back down. Step on the snake and you will get hurt.

Yes! Well said.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Bottomless Abyss BBS * bbs.bottomlessabyss.net

-=> POINDEXTER FORTRAN wrote to THUMPER <=-

Th> These tyrants demonize advances in firearm technology and invent terms
Th> like "ghost guns" to scare the uninformed into supporting their agenda.

PF> I think they're more scared about the fact that mass shootings are
PF> becoming normalized in people's minds, because they happen so god
PF> damned often.

Interesting point... Of course you know the FBI definition of 'mass
shooting?' Before you look it up, think in YOUR mind what the term
makes you think of...

Th> But the truth is, the self-manufacturing of firearms is something
Th> deeply rooted in American tradition and protected by the Constitution.

PF> Are there precedents regarding home firearm manufacturing and
PF> modification in case law? Not being a smart ass, actually curious.

I don't know about case law, but it's NOT illegal to construct your
own firearm for your use. Not to sell, by any means, but for you
to make one. Now owning a firearm if you're otherwise illegal to do
so (convicted felon, etc.) is a seperate crime.






... Wanted a pair of watch dogs, named the pups Timex and Bulova.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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-=> ARELOR wrote to POINDEXTER FORTRAN <=-

AR> If they were scared of guns manufactured in underground workshops being
AR> used for active shootings, it would be interesting to see how many
AR> unregistered guns have been manufactured and used for one of those in
AR> an underground workshop. I bet not many. Spain is an example of a
AR> country with a tight supply of commercial weapon parts, which makes it
AR> the sort of place in which baddies would turn to underground
AR> manufacturing, and while there are underground blacksmiths, baddies
AR> main sources of guns here are civil war stashes, corrupt law enforcers
AR> an Eastern Europe Smugglers.

AR> Afaik homemade guns are explicitly legal in a number of US States.

Yeah - the rhetoric is that 'ghost guns' are behing used in crimes and
it's impossible to trace them. BUT - I've seen NOTHING in that regard
in any reported data. I'm a legal gun owner. If I decide to manufacture
my own custom build, I'm in no more danger of using it for a crime than
any of the other guns I own.

By the same token, a 'crook' that likes to use a gun for armed robbery
or in a gang shooting? Why would they assemble parts at home that need
time, attention and elbow grease when they can just buy one on the black
market, or steal one?




... As my grandfather had said in his last words, "A TRUCK!"
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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-=> MOONDOG wrote to ARELOR <=-

MO> Regarding criminal activity with "ghost guns," they're not actual acts
MO> of viol ence. They are arrests of individuals who are prohibited from
MO> legally owning a firearm getting caught with one. Home made firearms
MO> are nothing new. The difference is people can buy CNC mini mills that
MO> fit on a table top that do all the precision work.

Much like 3d printers weren't a thing you could 'own at home' until just
a few years ago...

MO> Years ago I saw a builder's blog where the gunsmith bought a shovel at
MO> the local big box hardware store, and used a bending brake, a saw, a
MO> drill and a hammer cut and bend the shovel scoop into an AK receiver.
MO> Excess metal used t o create smaller pieces of the receiver that
MO> required welding in place. The buttstock was made from the handle.
MO> the rest of the gun was surplus parts that require no special paperwork
MO> to own. Most military arms made aroiund and after WWII were made of
MO> stamped pieces spot welded together. the complex parts were firing
MO> components, the bolt, and the rifled barrel.

Yep - a common 'concern' is that if they want to make 'any parts that can
be made into a gun' restricted then shovels, pipes, etc.





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-=> MOONDOG wrote to KAELON <=-


MO> Manufacturing and private ownership in the States was also a must have
MO> in the early days due to the king not having the money or sympathy to
MO> protect the new colonists from natives and aggressors from other
MO> countries. Telling the subjects to arm themselves was a critical move
MO> towards not needing a king and his army.

Add to this discussion the fact that "civilians shouldn't own military
hardware" is another misnomer... Civilians WERE the military, and they
could own canons, battleships, you name it!




... If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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> PF> I think they're more scared about the fact that mass shootings are
> PF> becoming normalized in people's minds, because they happen so god
> PF> damned often.

> Interesting point... Of course you know the FBI definition of 'mass
> shooting?' Before you look it up, think in YOUR mind what the term
> makes you think of...

In my mind it is when the shooter may have a specific target or two in
mind but then shoots multiple persons beyond his target, or when someone
just shoots indescriminantly into a crowd/building, etc., without any
specific target and shoots multiple persons.

However, in many recent lists, the press (and BBS posters) have included at
least one school shooting where the kid shot the two people he apparently
meant to, and no one else, despite having opportunity to do so.

I don't know the FBI's definition, but apparently the press / non-2A
definition is more than one person shot.


* SLMR 2.1a * Okay, I pulled the pin. Now what? Where are you going?

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Re: Re: Re:
By: Dumas Walker to JIMMY ANDERSON on Tue Jun 28 2022 04:47 pm

> I don't know the FBI's definition, but apparently the press / non-2A
> definition is more than one person shot.

The FBI does not define mass shootings, but instead has a classification of
"serial murder" which is an incident where four or more people are killed,
which may not necessarily involve gunfire. Most media considers four or more
persons shot (not necessarily fatalities) to be a "mass shooting"

o
(O)
BeLLy

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Re: Re: Re:
By: JIMMY ANDERSON to ARELOR on Sun Jun 26 2022 01:15 pm

> -=> ARELOR wrote to POINDEXTER FORTRAN <=-
>
> AR> If they were scared of guns manufactured in underground workshops being
> AR> used for active shootings, it would be interesting to see how many
> AR> unregistered guns have been manufactured and used for one of those in
> AR> an underground workshop. I bet not many. Spain is an example of a
> AR> country with a tight supply of commercial weapon parts, which makes it
> AR> the sort of place in which baddies would turn to underground
> AR> manufacturing, and while there are underground blacksmiths, baddies
> AR> main sources of guns here are civil war stashes, corrupt law enforcers
> AR> an Eastern Europe Smugglers.
>
> AR> Afaik homemade guns are explicitly legal in a number of US States.
>
> Yeah - the rhetoric is that 'ghost guns' are behing used in crimes and
> it's impossible to trace them. BUT - I've seen NOTHING in that regard
> in any reported data. I'm a legal gun owner. If I decide to manufacture
> my own custom build, I'm in no more danger of using it for a crime than
> any of the other guns I own.
>
> By the same token, a 'crook' that likes to use a gun for armed robbery
> or in a gang shooting? Why would they assemble parts at home that need
> time, attention and elbow grease when they can just buy one on the black
> market, or steal one?
>
>
>
>
> ... As my grandfather had said in his last words, "A TRUCK!"

I agree. Black market pistols are abundant. Sub $200 gunssell for $500 or more
in Detroit from the back of a car.

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-=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-

-=> MOONDOG wrote to ARELOR <=-

MO> legally owning a firearm getting caught with one. Home made firearms
MO> are nothing new. The difference is people can buy CNC mini mills that
MO> fit on a table top that do all the precision work.

JA> Much like 3d printers weren't a thing you could 'own at home' until
JA> just a few years ago...

Well.... if you consider 14 years "just a few years ago". Darwin's RepRap
printer was released in 2008.




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Brightening the BBS world since 1990
- Bex <3

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-=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-


MO> Manufacturing and private ownership in the States was also a must have
MO> in the early days due to the king not having the money or sympathy to
MO> protect the new colonists from natives and aggressors from other
MO> countries. Telling the subjects to arm themselves was a critical move
MO> towards not needing a king and his army.

JA> Add to this discussion the fact that "civilians shouldn't own military
JA> hardware" is another misnomer... Civilians WERE the military, and they
JA> could own canons, battleships, you name it!

If one were to be a student of the American Revolution and the Founding
Fathers, one would come to the conclusion that the populace should be allowed
the same access to arms and munitions as the military/government. In essense,
ANY law restricting access of weapons to the population is unconstitutional and
therefore illegal.

The Second Amendment was NOT put in place to guarantee the ability to hunt. It
was NOT put in place to guarantee the ability to defend against criminals. It
WAS put in place to guarantee the ability to defend the populace against a
government acting in an over-reaching and tyrannical manner. The Second
Amendment put in place the FOURTH branch of the government, The PEOPLE, armed
and able to defend the Constitution on its own terms. We need to defend the
Second in order to protect the other nine!

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On 6/26/22 06:43, JIMMY ANDERSON wrote:
>
> Add to this discussion the fact that "civilians shouldn't own military
> hardware" is another misnomer... Civilians WERE the military, and they
> could own canons, battleships, you name it!

Pragmatically, I would probably draw a line closer to nuclear materials
and arms than a cannon or tank. Worth noting that civilian arms dealers
have jets with missiles... they sell to the US (and Australia, Israel,
etc) but they are civilian companies.
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Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
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Re: Re: the American Traditio
By: Tracker1 to JIMMY ANDERSON on Thu Jul 07 2022 01:46 pm

> On 6/26/22 06:43, JIMMY ANDERSON wrote:
> >
> > Add to this discussion the fact that "civilians shouldn't own military
> > hardware" is another misnomer... Civilians WERE the military, and they
> > could own canons, battleships, you name it!
>
> Pragmatically, I would probably draw a line closer to nuclear materials
> and arms than a cannon or tank. Worth noting that civilian arms dealers
> have jets with missiles... they sell to the US (and Australia, Israel,
> etc) but they are civilian companies.
> --
> Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
>

Arms dealers fall into the category of trusts and corporations. In order to
make what is regarded as "destructive devices" according to the BATFE, a
special license is required to manufacture and sell such items. There is no
individual right involved. That is a ruse the anti-gunners have been trying
to use, saying the National Guard and centralized armoriesis what was intended
other than individuals owning and storing private arms. Having such permits
opens your doors to inspectors to veridy you are making and selling items
within the rules of your license level. For example, if an AR lower receiver
is made to 100% functionality, there is a window of time where it must be
marked and recorded in your inventory books. A few years ago Stag firearms
was forced to shut down because of possessing un-documented recievers in
their assembly facility. Their reason was they occasionally get custom
orders for special names or number runs. Also, if a gun is made to order,
fails QA, and the lower was the culprit, they could serialize a replacement
lower with the same serial number of the defective lower (which is then
destroyed.) While it's a good service, the BATFE didn't care. They had to
jump through hoops to re-open and part of that meant new owners who could
legally hold manufacturing FFL.

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