Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
here shot one?





... What if there were no hypothetical questions?
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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-=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to ALL <=-


JA> Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

JA> My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
JA> for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
JA> carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

JA> I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
JA> trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
JA> I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
JA> 7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
JA> the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
JA> and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

JA> Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
JA> mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
JA> new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

JA> So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
JA> here shot one?

I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
Shield.



... A day without sunshine is like night.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

-=> GAMGEE wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

GA> I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
GA> the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
GA> dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
GA> noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface,
GA> it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it.

The fact that I can use my existing holster (magazine holsters) is a big
plus to me (no pun intended).

My Shield is the first Gen, so it doesn't have the extra surface that
the 2.0 has, so this would definately be an improvement in that respect.

GA> The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of
GA> mind. I highly recommend it.

I'm THIS close to ordering one... Smokey Mountain Guns & Ammo has the
best price that I can find right now... $439.99 - free shipping - local
FFL charges a flat $20 cash to handle the transfer ($10 for TICS -
Tennessee Instant Check System, as opposed to NICS - and $10 for 'handling).

GA> I've always thought a .40 cal in a
GA> handgun this small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective
GA> follow-up shots.

Well, I'm hoping I NEVER have to fire it in self defense, but you're right...
Shooting at steel/paper in the back yard, there is a LOT of muzzle flip!
My wife's SIG or my son's 9mm Glock though? Super fast follow up shots!

I've always gone with the 'larger hole' thought process. :-) And never
thought that 9mm was NOT adequate, just that given a choice with the same
SIZE gun... I figure the larger hole is worth one or two rounds less.

BUT - when she got her SIG with the huge magazine and the flat trigger?
I was suddenly realizing that having 8 in mine vs, what, 14?, in hers?
I would have to reload once to have the same amount of shots!

And as much as I love the SIG, I wasn't crazy about changing over to
a new 'platform' - she carried a Shield .40 for a while wile I carried
her old 9mm Kel-Tec and once I shot her .40 and realized that it fit
my hand good and all that, well I had to have one. LOL

Again, I like the SIG! No complaints, and I'd be proud to carry one,
but the Shield fits my 'stuff' already, I don't have to get used to
a new gun (again, I NEVER want to have to shoot in self defense, but
I enjoy back yard plinking a LOT - LOL. I have a Sub2000 as a 'truck
gun' and wanted a .40 but couldn't find one at a good price. I bought
the 9mm version, so even though the mags are not interchangable, the
ammo is. :-)

GA> With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate.
GA> The Plus fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the
GA> original Shield.

Heck - .380 is much more now that it was a few years ago. :-) My wife's
'pocket' pistol she carries when she is not carrying the big one is a
Ruger .380 LCP II (bought it before they introduced the MAX, speaking
of higher capacity :-) ). I wouldn't have ANY problems using it if
I had to!

Thanks for the feedback! Nice to hear a REAL person and not just read
a review. :-)



... Aibohphobia, n. -- the fear of palindromes.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: JIMMY ANDERSON to ALL on Tue Oct 26 2021 02:31 pm

>
> Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.
>
> My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
> for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
> carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).
>
> I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
> trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
> I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
> 7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
> the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
> and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...
>
> Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
> mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
> new PLUS will fit in the same gear!
>
> So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
> here shot one?
>
>
>
>
>
> ... What if there were no hypothetical questions?

I like the M&P shields. I have a full size Performance Center M&P 40 CORE
and M&P 40 compact. The shield is close tthe size of the compact, but much
thinner.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Gamgee to JIMMY ANDERSON on Wed Oct 27 2021 09:27 am

> -=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to ALL <=-
>
>
> JA> Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.
>
> JA> My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
> JA> for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
> JA> carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).
>
> JA> I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
> JA> trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
> JA> I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
> JA> 7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
> JA> the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
> JA> and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...
>
> JA> Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
> JA> mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
> JA> new PLUS will fit in the same gear!
>
> JA> So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
> JA> here shot one?
>
> I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
> almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
> highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> Shield.
>
>
>
> ... A day without sunshine is like night.

I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and 40 M&P;s and t
he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm considering getting a 9mm
barrel for lighter practicing loads

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

-=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

> I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
> almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
> highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> Shield.

Mo> I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
Mo> 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
Mo> considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question.
Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
.40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.



... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Oct 29 2021 09:57 am

> -=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
>
> > I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> > the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> > dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> > noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
> > almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> > increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
> > highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> > small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> > shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> > fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> > Shield.
>
> Mo> I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
> Mo> 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
> Mo> considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads
>
> A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question.
> Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
> aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
> really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
> .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.
>
>
>
> ... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.

Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to convert the 40 to
a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or kludging to make them work.

Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time with having
a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight, feel and handliing are
the same. The recoil is only different. Sights on a defensive pistol are
not what you'd call match grade, and should be close enough with the right
choice of ammo. I can also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that
caliber uses the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider the
opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag
and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40 compact.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

-=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

> > I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> > the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> > dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> > noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
> > almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> > increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
> > highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> > small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> > shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> > fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> > Shield.

> Mo> I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
> Mo> 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
> Mo> considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

> A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question.
> Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
> aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
> really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
> .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.

Mo> Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to
Mo> convert the 40 to a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or
Mo> kludging to make them work.

If you say so.

Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
done that. Your mileage may vary.

Mo> feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
Mo> the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
Mo> compact.

Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the
thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the
extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.

You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.



... A day without sunshine is like night.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sat Oct 30 2021 07:59 pm

> -=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
>
> > > I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> > > the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> > > dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> > > noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it
> > > almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> > > increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind.
> > > highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> > > small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> > > shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> > > fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> > > Shield.
>
> > Mo> I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
> > Mo> 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
> > Mo> considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads
>
> > A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question.
> > Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
> > aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
> > really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
> > .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.
>
> Mo> Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to
> Mo> convert the 40 to a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or
> Mo> kludging to make them work.
>
> If you say so.
>
> Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
> Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,
>
> I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
> done that. Your mileage may vary.
>
> Mo> feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
> Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
> Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
> Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
> Mo> the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
> Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
> Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
> Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
> Mo> compact.
>
> Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
> cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the
> thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
> shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the
> extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.
>
> You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.
>
>
>
> ... A day without sunshine is like night.

Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was $85. A
Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box of 50 rounds of 9mm
was right around $10-12, either price isn't that bad for allowing someone to
make their pistil into a modular platform.

Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new. Uncommon, maybe.
It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get the feel of the gun and the
trigger pull without seeing the effects of pulling the trigger. I saw one
dry fire simulator that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne
via bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger through
the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone will show you a graph
of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the trigger.

Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your eyes and
hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount of
wasted steps.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

-=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

> Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
> Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

> I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
> done that. Your mileage may vary.
>
> Mo> feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
> Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
> Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
> Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
> Mo> the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
> Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
> Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
> Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
> Mo> compact.
>
> Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
> cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the
> thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
> shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the
> extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.
>
> You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.

Mo> Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
Mo> $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
Mo> of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
Mo> that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular
Mo> platform.

None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a
barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd
need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.
So I ask again.... what's the point?

Mo> Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
Mo> Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
Mo> the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
Mo> effects of pulling the trigger.

You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if
you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different
recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences
too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber,
and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death
situation with a different caliber?

Just doesn't make any sense.

Mo> I saw one dry fire simulator
Mo> that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
Mo> bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
Mo> through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
Mo> will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the
Mo> trigger.

Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where
my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make
adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some
"app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a
valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".

Mo> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
Mo> your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
Mo> the least amount of wasted steps.

Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different
feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your
life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this
any other way.



... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Oct 31 2021 09:40 pm

> -=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
>
> > Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
> > Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,
>
> > I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
> > done that. Your mileage may vary.
> >
> > Mo> feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
> > Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
> > Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
> > Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
> > Mo> the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
> > Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
> > Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
> > Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
> > Mo> compact.
> >
> > Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
> > cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the
> > thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
> > shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the
> > extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.
> >
> > You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.
>
> Mo> Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
> Mo> $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
> Mo> of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
> Mo> that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular
> Mo> platform.
>
> None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a
> barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd
> need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.
> So I ask again.... what's the point?
>
> Mo> Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
> Mo> Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
> Mo> the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
> Mo> effects of pulling the trigger.
>
> You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if
> you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different
> recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
> aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences
> too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber,
> and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death
> situation with a different caliber?
>
> Just doesn't make any sense.
>
> Mo> I saw one dry fire simulator
> Mo> that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
> Mo> bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
> Mo> through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
> Mo> will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the
> Mo> trigger.
>
> Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where
> my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make
> adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some
> "app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a
> valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".
>
> Mo> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
> Mo> your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
> Mo> the least amount of wasted steps.
>
> Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different
> feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your
> life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this
> any other way.
>
>
>
> ... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.

I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only premium
defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball
stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. That
would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and leave
the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try

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Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Moondog to Gamgee on Mon Nov 01 2021 08:42 pm

> Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
> By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Oct 31 2021 09:40 pm
>
> > -=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-
>
> > > Mo> Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
> > > Mo> with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,
>
> > > I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
> > > done that. Your mileage may vary.
>
> > > Mo> feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
> > > Mo> Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
> > > Mo> and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
> > > Mo> also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
> > > Mo> the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
> > > Mo> shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
> > > Mo> the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
> > > Mo> barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
> > > Mo> compact.
>
> > > Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
> > > cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in th
> > > thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
> > > shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by t
> > > extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that coun
>
> > > You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.
>
> > Mo> Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
> > Mo> $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
> > Mo> of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
> > Mo> that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular
> > Mo> platform.
>
> > None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a
> > barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd
> > need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.
> > So I ask again.... what's the point?
>
> > Mo> Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
> > Mo> Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
> > Mo> the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
> > Mo> effects of pulling the trigger.
>
> > You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if
> > you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different
> > recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
> > aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences
> > too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber,
> > and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death
> > situation with a different caliber?
>
> > Just doesn't make any sense.
>
> > Mo> I saw one dry fire simulator
> > Mo> that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
> > Mo> bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
> > Mo> through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
> > Mo> will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the
> > Mo> trigger.
>
> > Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where
> > my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make
> > adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some
> > "app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a
> > valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".
>
> > Mo> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
> > Mo> your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
> > Mo> the least amount of wasted steps.
>
> > Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different
> > feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your
> > life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this
> > any other way.
>
>
>
> > ... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.
>
> I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only premium
> defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball
> stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. That
> would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and leave
> the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try
>

As the poor guy comming from a country in which ammo is not plentyful, my own
opinion is that if you can't afford to train with high end stuff, you can't
afford to use high end stuff.

No shame in that.

If you can't justify the expense of .40 for training then maybe you should stay
with 9mm or .38, and use the more exotic bullets for some healthy fun in the
range.

It is not like there aren't affordable calibers that are serviceable.

--
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Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Nov 02 2021 06:21 am


> >
> > I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only prem
> > defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball
> > stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. T
> > would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and le
> > the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try
> >
>
> As the poor guy comming from a country in which ammo is not plentyful, my ow
> opinion is that if you can't afford to train with high end stuff, you can't
> afford to use high end stuff.
>
> No shame in that.
>
> If you can't justify the expense of .40 for training then maybe you should s
> with 9mm or .38, and use the more exotic bullets for some healthy fun in the
> range.
>
> It is not like there aren't affordable calibers that are serviceable.
>
> --
> gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
>

My "carry" ammo is Hornady Critical Defense, and my practice ammo are
handloads cranked out on a single stage press. I reload for less than lf
of the price of premium defensive ammo. My cost is slightly less than
factory practice ammo, however made to more consistent standards. I can
easily match velocity and performance of my practice ammo to my defensive
ammo, however my goal at this point is mainly to shoot more. Before covid,
the election, blm and everything else pushed up the price of ammo and
components, the 9mm shooters I knew were having trouble saving any change
compared to the price of highly abundant 9mm factory ammo.

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-=> MOONDOG wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

>
> Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.
>
> My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
> for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
> carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).
>
> I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
> trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
> I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
> 7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
> the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
> and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...
>
> Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
> mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
> new PLUS will fit in the same gear!
>
> So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
> here shot one?
>
>
>
>
>
> ... What if there were no hypothetical questions?

MO> I like the M&P shields. I have a full size Performance Center M&P 40
MO> CORE and M&P 40 compact. The shield is close tthe size of the compact,
MO> but much thinner.

Yeah, I carry a .40 shield now. Curious about the PLUS.



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-=> GAMGEE wrote to MOONDOG <=-

-=> Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

> I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
> the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
> dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
> noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's
> almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The
> increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
> highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
> small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
> shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
> fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
> Shield.

Mo> I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
Mo> 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
Mo> considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

GA> A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question.
GA> Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
GA> aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
GA> really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
GA> .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.


To me, it's like putting a .22 barrel, etc. on an AR or a 1911... I don't
begrudge someone for doing so, of course, to each his own. I may get to
a point where I do something like that, but for now I'm not going to convert
mine.

I did thing about, at one time, getting a .357 SIG barrel for my .40, since
the magazines are the same, but decided it wasn't worth the effort for a
POSSIBLE increase in 'power.'

But still thinking of going to the PLUS, even though it's a smaller
round...




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-=> MOONDOG wrote to GAMGEE <=-



MO> Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was $85.
MO> A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box of 50 rounds
MO> of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't that bad for
MO> allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

MO> Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new. Uncommon,
MO> maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get the feel of the
MO> gun and the trigger pull without seeing the effects of pulling the
MO> trigger. I saw one dry fire simulator that involves a barrel insert
MO> that connects to your phne via bluetooth, and it detects movements such
MO> as jerking the trigger through the use of motion sensors. The display
MO> on your phone will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you
MO> pulled the trigger.

MO> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your
MO> eyes and
MO> hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount
MO> of wasted steps.

To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting at
various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges - and I'm not
concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on target' - and that target
is either a head size circle or a torso size rectangle.




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-=> MOONDOG wrote to ARELOR <=-

MO> defensive ammo, however my goal at this point is mainly to shoot more.

For me, NOTHING takes the place of real shots! That's a good goal! :-)

And a fun one too, if I say so myself. LOL



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-=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-

MO> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your
MO> eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least
MO> amount of wasted steps.

JA> To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting
JA> at various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges -
JA> and I'm not concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on
JA> target' - and that target is either a head size circle or a torso
JA> size rectangle.

Ever heard the term "aim small, miss small"? Google it. It's valid.


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Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
By: Gamgee to JIMMY ANDERSON on Tue Nov 09 2021 07:33 am

> -=> JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-
>
> MO> Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your
> MO> eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least
> MO> amount of wasted steps.
>
> JA> To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting
> JA> at various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges -
> JA> and I'm not concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on
> JA> target' - and that target is either a head size circle or a torso
> JA> size rectangle.
>
> Ever heard the term "aim small, miss small"? Google it. It's valid.
>
>
> ... Post may contain information unsuitable for overly sensitive persons.

Steel Challenge is more about ringing steel fast versus placing holes in the
x-ring. A certain amount of precision is required to hit various sized
plates at various ranges. That much is granted.

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