The "Affordable Care Act" is training wheels for us to go on single payer
health care. It does some good things, but for those who earn money beyond the
subsidies, the health care costs are painful where its just as hurtful as actual taxes which leads to the movement to repeal it. For a family making 126k a year it would be like 12.9% of their income and the deductables would be super high which makes health insurance pointless.

The affordable care act should not be repealed unless we have a viable system that helps people with pre-existing conditions.

We could look into a hybrid system where all citizens get Medicaid as what they do in Australia, and then people can pay for private health insurance.

I know the progressives want single payer, but unless we pay down our budget deficit a bit, I do not feel comfortable with the start up costs.

---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Single payer health care
By: Utopian Galt to All on Sun Jan 26 2025 10:10 am

> The "Affordable Care Act" is training wheels for us to go on single payer
> health care. It does some good things, but for those who earn money beyond
> the subsidies, the health care costs are painful where its just as hurtful
> as actual taxes which leads to the movement to repeal it. For a family
> making 126k a year it would be like 12.9% of their income and the
> deductables would be super high which makes health insurance pointless.
>

i know plenty of people who can't afford the ACA though.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

-=> Aaron Goldblatt wrote to Utopian Galt <=-

UG> I know the progressives want single payer, but unless we pay down our
UG> budget deficit a bit, I do not feel comfortable with the start up
UG> costs.

AG> Reforming our tax system such that all incomes pay something
AG> approximating a fair share, and reforming defense spending, would go a
AG> long way toward paying for the creation of a national health system and
AG> a stable Social Security system.

AG> Non-exhaustive example: Defense spending is known to be rife with
AG> waste, but efforts to control it and figure out what money is actually
AG> being spent on are stymied at every turn (and this week's firing of the
AG> Inspector General at DOD will not help). Defense spending is the number
AG> general line item in the budget after Social Security (see below), yet
AG> nobody wants to make any serious effort to touch it. Social Security
AG> used to be the third rail of politics; now it seems to be guns.

AG> Non-exhaustive example: Social security could be considerably shored up
AG> by lifting the maximum income limit on the tax (currently approximately
AG> $176,000).

AG> Non-exhaustive example: Taxing capital gains at a higher rate than we
AG> do presently, especially for gains values over $1 million. Currently,
AG> the individual rate sits at 20%, down from a maximum of 35% in 1979,
AG> and the corporate rate sits at 21%, down from a maximum of 35%
AG> beginning in 1993. Yet it's well known that large corporations pay
AG> little to nothing, sometimes even getting millions to hundreds of
AG> millions in refunds. In a fair system, that would not happen.

AG> Instead, politicians focus on penny-anty nonsense like cutting NASA and
AG> the USPS (both respectively less than 0.06% of the total spend in
AG> 2024). The USPS in particular would be self-supporting if not for that
AG> silly retirement pre-funding accounting gimmick that no other business
AG> in the world is required to use. (And there is a significant argument
AG> to be made that not everything must be for-profit.)

AG> On the other hand, Republicans seem to have a significant aversion to
AG> doing anything at all that will help average people and make their
AG> lives easier. Non-exhaustive examples: Proposals to repeal the ACA
AG> without any kind of plan to replace it, despite now having had 14 years
AG> to come up with something; litigation and plans in legislation to
AG> destroy the SAVE plan for student loan borrowers; continual attempts to
AG> tighten eligibility for Medicaid, SSDI, SNAP and school lunches.

Sounds like you should move your socialist commie-wannabe ass to
Venezuela. I hear it's nice there this time of year.



... Your proctologist called - he found your head.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Single payer health care
By: Bf2k+ to Aaron Goldblatt on Mon Jan 27 2025 04:21 am

> make ends meet and pay my bills. That acct is almost dry now.
>
> That's my reality... not some stupid notion that Trump is going to take my
> health insurance away.

that obama care heal insurance is shit. it's expensive and the coverage sucks.
i looked at it a few times. people can just work pt at walmart and get better insurance.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

UG> I know the progressives want single payer, but unless we pay down our
UG> budget deficit a bit, I do not feel comfortable with the start up
UG> costs.

Reforming our tax system such that all incomes pay something approximating a
fair share, and reforming defense spending, would go a long way toward paying
for the creation of a national health system and a stable Social Security
system.

Non-exhaustive example: Defense spending is known to be rife with waste, but
efforts to control it and figure out what money is actually being spent on
are stymied at every turn (and this week's firing of the Inspector General
at DOD will not help). Defense spending is the number general line item in
the budget after Social Security (see below), yet nobody wants to make any
serious effort to touch it. Social Security used to be the third rail of
politics; now it seems to be guns.

Non-exhaustive example: Social security could be considerably shored up by
lifting the maximum income limit on the tax (currently approximately $176,000).

Non-exhaustive example: Taxing capital gains at a higher rate than we do
presently, especially for gains values over $1 million. Currently, the
individual rate sits at 20%, down from a maximum of 35% in 1979, and the
corporate rate sits at 21%, down from a maximum of 35% beginning in 1993. Yet
it's well known that large corporations pay little to nothing, sometimes even
getting millions to hundreds of millions in refunds. In a fair system, that
would not happen.

Instead, politicians focus on penny-anty nonsense like cutting NASA and the
USPS (both respectively less than 0.06% of the total spend in 2024). The USPS
in particular would be self-supporting if not for that silly retirement
pre-funding accounting gimmick that no other business in the world is required
to use. (And there is a significant argument to be made that not everything
must be for-profit.)

On the other hand, Republicans seem to have a significant aversion to doing
anything at all that will help average people and make their lives easier.
Non-exhaustive examples: Proposals to repeal the ACA without any kind of plan
to replace it, despite now having had 14 years to come up with something;
litigation and plans in legislation to destroy the SAVE plan for student loan
borrowers; continual attempts to tighten eligibility for Medicaid, SSDI,
SNAP and school lunches.

But hey, eggs are supposed to get cheaper (but hey, aren't).

ag

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Rainbow's Digital Disaster - Breaking Bits Since I Forget When

Re: Single payer health care
By: Aaron Goldblatt to Utopian Galt on Sun Jan 26 2025 08:29 pm

> On the other hand, Republicans seem to have a significant aversion to doing
> anything at all that will help average people and make their lives easier.

Bullshit!

When Trump was Prez the first time, I was saving $1000/month in a saving account (something I never had.)

Since Biden took office, I have to take out that $1000 every month just to make ends meet and pay my bills. That acct is almost dry now.

That's my reality... not some stupid notion that Trump is going to take my health insurance away.

---
þ Synchronet þ TIRED of waiting 2 hours for a taco? GO TO TACOPRONTO.bbs.io

> On the other hand, *politicans* seem to have a significant aversion to doing
> anything at all that will help average people and make their lives easier.

Fixed it for you.


* SLMR 2.1a * Hey, how 'bout a fandango ?!?
---
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

On 2025-01-28, MRO <BBSESINF!MRO@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Single payer health care
> By: Bf2k+ to Aaron Goldblatt on Mon Jan 27 2025 04:21 am
>
> > make ends meet and pay my bills. That acct is almost dry now.
> >
> > That's my reality... not some stupid notion that Trump is going to take my
> > health insurance away.
>
> that obama care heal insurance is shit. it's expensive and the coverage sucks.
> i looked at it a few times. people can just work pt at walmart and get better insurance.
> ---
> þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

As an European living in Spain:

- State healthcare = amazing, really good, you get what you deserve for your taxes
- Private healthcare = almost a scam, and on really bad issues, they send you to
the public healthcare

But, OTOH:

- State monopoly on telecomms (State owned Telefonica, kinda like your AT&T but being
publicly owned) = Astounding phone bills in the 90's
- Teleco liberalisation in the late 90's = cheaper prices for everyone, Internet with DSL
and flat rates everywhere, good services overall

America needs this. State regulated healthcare, and EU level food regulations. Lives
over profit. Upper class Americans somehow die sooner than low-class Europeans.
That's ridiculous.
Everything non-trivial for human life can be perfectly be as capitalistic as ever.
If you want an expensive smartphone, that's ok, go for it.

---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

On 2025-01-28, Gamgee <PALANTIR!Gamgee@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> -=> Aaron Goldblatt wrote to Utopian Galt <=-
>
> UG> I know the progressives want single payer, but unless we pay down our
> UG> budget deficit a bit, I do not feel comfortable with the start up
> UG> costs.
>
> AG> Reforming our tax system such that all incomes pay something
> AG> approximating a fair share, and reforming defense spending, would go a
> AG> long way toward paying for the creation of a national health system and
> AG> a stable Social Security system.
>
> AG> Non-exhaustive example: Defense spending is known to be rife with
> AG> waste, but efforts to control it and figure out what money is actually
> AG> being spent on are stymied at every turn (and this week's firing of the
> AG> Inspector General at DOD will not help). Defense spending is the number
> AG> general line item in the budget after Social Security (see below), yet
> AG> nobody wants to make any serious effort to touch it. Social Security
> AG> used to be the third rail of politics; now it seems to be guns.
>
> AG> Non-exhaustive example: Social security could be considerably shored up
> AG> by lifting the maximum income limit on the tax (currently approximately
> AG> $176,000).
>
> AG> Non-exhaustive example: Taxing capital gains at a higher rate than we
> AG> do presently, especially for gains values over $1 million. Currently,
> AG> the individual rate sits at 20%, down from a maximum of 35% in 1979,
> AG> and the corporate rate sits at 21%, down from a maximum of 35%
> AG> beginning in 1993. Yet it's well known that large corporations pay
> AG> little to nothing, sometimes even getting millions to hundreds of
> AG> millions in refunds. In a fair system, that would not happen.
>
> AG> Instead, politicians focus on penny-anty nonsense like cutting NASA and
> AG> the USPS (both respectively less than 0.06% of the total spend in
> AG> 2024). The USPS in particular would be self-supporting if not for that
> AG> silly retirement pre-funding accounting gimmick that no other business
> AG> in the world is required to use. (And there is a significant argument
> AG> to be made that not everything must be for-profit.)
>
> AG> On the other hand, Republicans seem to have a significant aversion to
> AG> doing anything at all that will help average people and make their
> AG> lives easier. Non-exhaustive examples: Proposals to repeal the ACA
> AG> without any kind of plan to replace it, despite now having had 14 years
> AG> to come up with something; litigation and plans in legislation to
> AG> destroy the SAVE plan for student loan borrowers; continual attempts to
> AG> tighten eligibility for Medicaid, SSDI, SNAP and school lunches.
>
> Sounds like you should move your socialist commie-wannabe ass to
> Venezuela. I hear it's nice there this time of year.
>
>
>
> ... Your proctologist called - he found your head.
> --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
> þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Spain is not Venezuela and it works really well. Nobody will neither steal your iPhone
nor deny your rights for a private insurance. You know, between Stalin and Vance
there's a huge spectrum and sane people. In my case, state healthcare was amazing.

Our state AT&T teleco monopoly (former Telefonica) sucked a lot compared to private companies.
And for telecomms I supported liberlisations from the start.

On healthcare... the private companies
can't even try to compete, for mid-level surgeries they send you to the public service.

Some things are better under a private companies. Healthcare, food control... that's a
recipe for disasters. Just have a look on what's happening with measles.

It sucks to be the only rational out there.

---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: Single payer health care
By: anthk to All on Sat Apr 05 2025 10:04 am

> - State healthcare = amazing, really good, you get what you deserve for your
> taxes
> - Private healthcare = almost a scam, and on really bad issues, they send
> you to
> the public healthcare

I take issue with this because it is frankly not true at all, except the half true part that statistically speaking, most very bad cases are done done at a socialized healthcare facility.

But then I could point out that socialized healthcare is sending all the cases they don't want to deal with to private healthcare via public subcontracts.

Whet the hell, we have had patients here who arrived to our facilities because socialized healthcare placed them on a queue worth a fucking year (!!!) for a chronic joint pain case. Max queue in our facilities is three weeks (with an average of one).


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Single payer health care
By: anthk to All on Sat Apr 05 2025 10:04 am

> Spain is not Venezuela and it works really well. Nobody will neither steal
> your iPhone
> nor deny your rights for a private insurance. You know, between Stalin and
> Vance
> there's a huge spectrum and sane people. In my case, state healthcare was
> amazing.

Here is the thing, the government does not need to steal your right to get an insurance plan because they can force you to buy their insurance plans. ONce you have bought their insurance plan they don't care if you buy another one you happen to prefer. They already got their cut.

The only thing you need to observe to realize the whole ploy is a scam is that public officers and servants are the only people who is allowed to op-out. If you happen to be a judge, policeman, state trooper, then you can opt to get private insurance *instead* of socialized insurance. Everybody else must buy socialized insurance "or else" independently or their will to hire a separate plan.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

On 2025-04-06, Arelor <PALANTIR!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Re: Single payer health care
> By: anthk to All on Sat Apr 05 2025 10:04 am
>
> > - State healthcare = amazing, really good, you get what you deserve for your
> > taxes
> > - Private healthcare = almost a scam, and on really bad issues, they send
> > you to
> > the public healthcare
>
> I take issue with this because it is frankly not true at all, except the half true part that statistically speaking, most very bad cases are done done at a socialized healthcare facility.
>
> But then I could point out that socialized healthcare is sending all the cases they don't want to deal with to private healthcare via public subcontracts.
>
> Whet the hell, we have had patients here who arrived to our facilities because socialized healthcare placed them on a queue worth a fucking year (!!!) for a chronic joint pain case. Max queue in our facilities is three weeks (with an average of one).
>
>
> --
> gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
>
> ---
> þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

>sending all the cases

In serious life threatening cases, it's kinda the opposite. But, yes, on non-covered
public healthcare issues such as teeth, these are sent to the private dentints.
Someting that should have been socialized since the childhood, because tons of
illnesses (soon maybe Alzheimer?) are related to teeth infections.

If you prevent these kind of issues, the public services would spend far less in a near
future, and everyone would win there.

OTOH, I would slash down any council made for "victims of terrorism/sexist attacks".
These should be the case of socialized mental healthcare and not money grabbing instutitions.
Both PP and PSOE profit from this like crazy.
Then all the money left would be better spent on even *better* healthcare.
Which is not bad at all compared to the US, or even the NHS post privatisations
and worse, Brexit.

---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

On 2025-04-06, Arelor <PALANTIR!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:
>
> Re: Re: Single payer health care
> By: anthk to All on Sat Apr 05 2025 10:04 am
>
> > Spain is not Venezuela and it works really well. Nobody will neither steal
> > your iPhone
> > nor deny your rights for a private insurance. You know, between Stalin and
> > Vance
> > there's a huge spectrum and sane people. In my case, state healthcare was
> > amazing.
>
> Here is the thing, the government does not need to steal your right to get an insurance plan because they can force you to buy their insurance plans. ONce you have bought their insurance plan they don't care if you buy another one you happen to prefer. They already got their cut.
>
> The only thing you need to observe to realize the whole ploy is a scam is that public officers and servants are the only people who is allowed to op-out. If you happen to be a judge, policeman, state trooper, then you can opt to get private insurance *instead* of socialized insurance. Everybody else must buy socialized insurance "or else" independently or their will to hire a separate plan.
>
>
> --
> gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
>
> ---
> þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

I know, I'm totally against it except for non-covered issues such as teeth issues.
If you are a public servant, you should pay taxes as everyone.
BTW, I live up in the North, and if you are from Madrid... Madrid it's a damn disaster
because the right wing party destroyed it to put its private minions so everyone
has to get a private insurance. They are a damn mafia. At least our similarly idiots
of the Basque Nationalist Party are closely 'watched' so our healthcare doesn't go
to /dev/null.

And, again, I'm not a commie. I know pretty well how the Basque Healthcare works
and more than nationalistic I'm maximalistic. I can't change the whole Spain,
but if I can keep my region with some mininum of social rights, I want to keep them.
Then, I'm not anti-capitalist. You want a Macbook? A Xiaomi laptop? 10GB fiber?
Go for it, but on pandemics, vaccines and such, I don't want the Monopoly guys
playing with something that could cause the 2nd Black Plague.

If you want a capitalistic economy, well, FFS, you need healthy workers and...well...
clients. Dead and ill people don't move the wheel of economy at all...

---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: Single payer health care
By: anthk to All on Tue Apr 08 2025 01:05 am

> In serious life threatening cases, it's kinda the opposite. But, yes, on
> non-covered
> public healthcare issues such as teeth, these are sent to the private
> dentints. Someting that should have been socialized since the childhood,
> because tons of illnesses (soon maybe Alzheimer?) are related to teeth
> infections.

I am talking specifically about consitions that are covered by socialized healthcare and the social security system just pumps it out to private healthcare via subcontracts because they outright can't deal with all of it.

The point is if a given autonomy is pumping 50% of their TAC studies (for example) into private healthcare, you can bet they are pumping specifically the cases they don't want to deal with. You know, autistic children that are going to put out a show in the radiodiagnosis unit, or outright fucked up cases. No body wants to deal with a worse than average case so social healthcare workers who get paid no productivity aren't going to care much for those.

And then there is the pool of really fucked up fuckups that are nominally covered by socialized healthcare but nobody at social health services will take the case. We recently had a case of a young gal that cannot eat because her digestive tract is all messed up. At first she tried social services as everybody else but she was told what, in essence, was "Yeah you are covered, but nobody has time for your case, so get lost."

It depends on the particular unit, but socialized healthcare units that see a lot of use are usually very badly managed. If you show up at a rural consultory in a lot of places you will be lucky to find the Doctor within the official schedule, because half the time he won't show up at all. Orthopedia units are cronically overloaded - they kind of are too in the private sector, but the difference is that the private sector will go deep in debt in order to hire more people and build new installations to cope.

As much as I hate the private hospital we are contractors for, you have to concceed they are hell bent on providing service, to the point they have taken loans using nearly 100% of their equipment as guarantee. Compare that to socialized systems, in which they will take loans using YOUR assets as a guarantee, and then still fail to deliver.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Single payer health care
By: anthk to All on Tue Apr 08 2025 01:05 am

> BTW, I live up in the North, and if you are from Madrid... Madrid it's a
> damn disaster
> because the right wing party destroyed it to put its private minions so
> everyone
> has to get a private insurance. They are a damn mafia.

Thanks for bringing up this point, because it is a recurrent issue:

Have you noticed that most of the people who want a strong socialized healthcare system in Spain can't stop complaining that socialized healthcare is underfunded, badly managed, and can't guarantee adecuate services?

It is Schroedinger's healthcare. It is awesome when we need to argue social healthcare is the best healthcare model, but it is awful the rest of the time.

Also, it is often argued that socialized healthcare is awful only because politicians have partnered with private healthcare investors in order to make it so. Considering Oscar Puente was caught driving an official vehicle from an hospital group before he was minister I can totally buy he had a shady deal with them (my suspicion is the hospital group was bribing Oscar Puente with that car as a way to ease some healthcare licensing deals that were going on up North back then). What others consider an argument in defense of socialized healthcare is actually a deep argument against it: how trustworthy could a social system be if the likes of Pedro Sanchez or Feijoo can trash it with no accountability in exchange for under-the-counter deals?

And in the end that is precisely the point. If social healthcare is corrupt (which it is) then nobody is giving you the option to opt-out unless you happen to be a government agent. That is so screwed up.



--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Single payer health care
By: Arelor to anthk on Tue Apr 08 2025 05:15:29


--
NNNN
* Origin: PaMaFa BBS Torino IT - www.pamafa.it - (2:334/10)

---
þ Synchronet þ PAMAFASERVER - bbs.venerandi.it